Anyone have any info on The Bricasti Design Model 5 Network Player

[Miska]

30 minutes ago, One and a half said:

I've abandoned Ethernet for audio, just as many noise issues and fixes as USB.

 

What noise issues? It doesn't have noise issues. It even officially supports optical links so you gain full galvanic isolation.

[Miska]

52 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Ethernet is noiseless? Why are there pages devoted to cleaning up the signal, including special noise free switches/routers/nics/clocks?

 

If I would be nasty, to most extent I would say lot of that is snake-oil.

 

52 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Why do Ham radio operators go to extraordinary lengths to reduce the crud from IT/Ethernet.

 

Probably that is not something that is conducted by ethernet wire to their system, especially optical one?

 

And if you look at pro-audio networked interfaces (Dante/RAVENNA) now commonly used to record the music you listen, I'm not hearing too much complaints. Even using plain old copper ethernet which is transformer isolated by the spec, unlike USB.

 

52 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Optical fibre requires a media conversion from optical to copper to the likes of the M5, and media converters are powered, wait for it, a noisy SMPS.

 

Well, that's a design problem of M5 that it doesn't have optical ethernet connections. If fact I think manufacturers should just equip devices with SFP slots, then you can choose between copper ethernet and various different optical links. This is what is the common practice in normal IT world.

 

Sure, audiophile device sector has lot to catch up and learn on networking side, even more so than they've had on USB.

 

33 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

A gigabit network switch that optically isolates internally, inside one metal box powered by one single PSU, with just ethernet input and ethernet output, one day would be really nice.

 

Just use a switch with optical connections and have network card with optical interfaces in your computer. No converter boxes needed.

[Miska]

10 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Macbook user here :-) And Roon Core (ROCK) and Roon endpoints are all ethernet based.

 

You can certainly build Roon Server and Roon Bridge with optical connections. No problems on that front, no need for FMC.

 

Btw, "ethernet" also includes optical media links as well as copper.

 

10 hours ago, Em2016 said:

But yes, that's a solution if you just have one computer as both your 'core' or server, and 'endpoint'.

 

Nope, works for both Roon and HQPlayer separate server + endpoint. And of course also for Roon <-> HQPlayer comms. So you have options such as copper or optical ethernet, and WiFi.

[Miska]

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

As for replacing copper with Fibre. No. Costs too much to run and install and for what advantage? High speed is not a priority,  galvanic isolation, with power supplies that leak? Any noise on the network will end up where you don't want it, so keep the noise OUT of the audio system, why introduce rubbish. I don't follow. @Miska, you have to try harder.

Visio-Ethernet and USB Audio.pdf

 

I just don't understand why would you want limiting, annoying point-to-point connections? That is not how networks are designed to be built. And don't use those expensive STP audiophile ethernet cables, they are a big problem! Probably lot of people end up using all kinds of extra stuff just because they use wrong type of network cable!

 

Only use network cables that have connectors like this:

 

Do not use network cables that have connectors like this, unless you really really know what you are doing (because you spoil the galvanic isolation you'd otherwise have):

 

 

I like the first picture the best. Flexible, convenient and great quality without ground loop problems or such. In your USB setup you have contiguous chain of ground connections between devices -> asking for trouble and noise.

 

I have 5 gigabit switches around the house, three WiFi access points, and I've lost count how many computers and DACs. And I don't have noise problems, I've measured it. And I don't have more than one ethernet connection on any other computer than my internet server/firewall machines.

 

Whenever I manage to see a noise problem, it always has to do with USB. Not network. And getting rid of it may be complex.

 

And then there's the freaking UAC2, and number of devices leak the fixed packet rate used there to the analog output. That appears as spectrum peaks at multiples of 8 kHz.

 

[Miska]

If you want point-to-point connections. Certainly networking gear is not for you. Probably you don't want to connect to internet either. It is not point-to-point either, it is a network. You don't run USB from home to your ISP's backbone either.

 

What comes to "audiophile switches" and the like, try to convince Tidal and your ISP to have such in their network. If you don't like optical, try to get ISPs adopt copper again, good luck with that.

 

Having ordinary network gear and connections in your home is much simpler and less noisy than anything out there in big world. Including your mobile phone's cellular connection. If streaming from Tidal servers to your stereos work without audiophile switches at the ISP side, it'll work just fine the last few meters in your home too.

 

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

Source to target like turntable-amp, tuner-amp

 

That creates potential ground current setup. This can easily create noise problems.

 

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

not router-switch-switch-computer-renderer

 

While this doesn't as long as you don't purposefully screw it up. This is unlikely to create noise problems.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

Agree with STP cable to a degree. STP kills radiated noise, but allows conductive noise to travel freely between source and target. So whats the better of the two evils?

 

Since network signaling on twisted pair is differential, it doesn't really radiate anything. I use mostly UTP. And STP only on few certain very carefully selected short feeds.

 

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

You've ignored the power supplies that feed the network and their effects on conducted noise via AC.

 

I have power filters for audio gear. SMPS audio gear on one filter, LPS audio gear or another one. No problems what so ever.

 

Your home likely has quite a bunch of SMPS equipment anyway.

 

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

There are less hops to the audio system with USB.

 

That creates the noise problem. Direct point-to-point noise conduction. With ethernet you have transformer isolation at every connector. More you have hops, more you have isolation between the source and endpoint.

 

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

A simple cable connection, source to target and done thank you, is that too much to ask for?

 

If it's for a reason. I don't see simple UTP cable connection from a switch or wall socket to some piece of equipment a problem. And then I can access than equipment from any of the computers around the house.

 

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

Not all of us are networking gurus, nor want to be, but out of necessity have to put up and learn networking basics, troubleshoot DNS, IP address, subnet management, DHCP, jumbo packets, auto negotiation, ping, routing......zgsplatzg!

 

You are making it very hard for yourself by having multi-homed nodes (more than one network interface). Having 1 router and one 16-port switch (in a metal case, with good built-in PSU, no wall-warts) usually makes things work pretty much plug-and-play. Home routers manage DHCP/DNS and such.

 

 

P.S. In cases where NAA-like devices help, I've measured about 10 dB drop in noise peaks compared to direct USB connection. Pulling the network plug have not made difference in these cases.

[Miska]

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

No wonder @Miska advises against STP, since the chassis of the different parts of the network are at differences of voltages and significant ones at that, enough to create the worst ground loop for low and high impedance leakage currents to travel wherever they like.

 

Similar behavior can be observed with traditional audio gear when their grounds are not connected. And one reason why ethernet has isolation between devices. Longer the distances get, more problem it becomes, think about wiring of entire office building with completely separate power feeds.

 

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

A standard filter won't work, because the power supply needs to be isolated as well.

 

I'm not following on this one...

 

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

Apart from a few diversions here and there, 'network noise' needs taming as much as USB otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist... would they?

 

There's no "network noise" as long as things are new screwed up. But I'm happy to see the network noise things demonstrated in DAC output measurements. So far, I've successfully measured DAC analog output noise reduction by using NAA-type devices instead of direct USB connection from computer.

 

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

I grabbed a GS108 (S2)

 

This is one device that works OK, but not something I'd recommend. By default it has a floating wall-wart PSU, although I have such (GS108Tv2) in one place in the house, but it is powered using PoE (the reason I have the switch is because it supports running from PoE). Generally I recommend switches that have proper metal chassis with built-in PSU, and high quality gear like stuff from Hewlett-Packard Enterprise or Cisco. And I have 802.3az aka Energy Efficient Ethernet aka Green Ethernet support as requirement, this allows to use lower transmit power for shorter cables. At the moment my listening room's local distribution switch is Zyxel GS1100-series 16-port model GS1100-16 (good MTBF and low heat production too). 24-port model gives you in addition two SFP slots for optical connections.

 

Other than that, my recommended switch for home audio use is HPE 1820-series. But I think I will soon upgrade mine to 1850-series which can do 10 Gbps switch-to-switch links.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

This could mean, the M5 is incapable of having the IP address set manually, there's nothing in the manual or in the reply from the vendor. I appreciate to make connections simple for everyone, but simpler is often better.

 

I prefer IPv6 for various reasons, and one is that it can do address autoconfiguration for local network without external service like DHCP. So each device can figure out their own unique address within the same subnet.

 

But in any case, most of these devices, like Sonore microRendu too, are intended to be connected to normal home network with DHCP and internet access (for updates). And there are really no clear objective reasons to do otherwise.

 

[Miska]

12 minutes ago, plissken said:

Wifi works really well now days. 

 

All networking works generally very well, like copper/optical ethernet which has been around for ages and even in very large installations much more challenging than home. Even in very challenging environments like industrial.

 

Recent WiFi standards have so much bandwidth and with addition of MIMO it usually works well for audio. Only in very congested city areas with lot of apartments and such, it can become challenging. But usually even in those environments 5 GHz band works well because it doesn't go so much through concrete walls and thus it is much more "local".