ISO REGEN launch thread! (product web page up; photos, etc.)

[asdf1000]

Hi Alex @Superdad @JohnSwenson

 

Has John heard the absolutely final production build too?  Or has he left the final approval to your expert ears !

 

Only asking because of his movements with looking for a home etc and wondering if he's had a chance to hear the final thing. Perhaps it was difficult for him (logistically) to hear the final thing, so thought I'd ask.

 

Only asking out of general interest and as a John S fan, no other reason.

 

Cheers, Sean

 

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

John does have one of the true production boards--since the day after the first 3 arrived to me last week.  Not sure if he has been able to listen to that one yet, but he certainly had many months with near identical just prior revision--which has been in my possession since he started moving and which is what I compared the finished piece against.  Production boards most always sound better that the hand-bulilt prototypes, and there was one change we made that we both agreed would likely improve things a little--and it did!

 

Frankly, as I felt with the original USB REGEN before hundreds got to hear it, I feel like ISO REGEN could be very "polarizing."  I have had a lot of moments of "huh?" and "wow" and "is that right?"  And the more I switched around (with the older REGEN, with several of the well known competitive devices, without anything at all) the more the ISO REGEN hit me over the head with its qualities.  But while I expect some people will find it too different, or too challenging, I also expect most to go "WOW" and "huh?" and then to hopefully listen to a LOT of tracks and "discover the music beyond the sound." (I put that in quotes because I almost feel like trademarking that cliche.  Okay, its late, I'll stop and go to bed... )

 

You should definitely trademark that :-)

 

I like the way you looked after the USB REGEN 'green' customers after the 'amber' revision was announced.

 

I guess at the back of my mind I ask if John's heard the absolutely latest and greatest build, thinking about a similar potential revision.

 

As I said the way the USB REGEN revision (from green to amber) was handled was exemplary so it's not even a big deal to me. I'm quite happy to dive in knowing if something gets improved later that it won't be hidden from the original customers and supporters.

 

Cheers again Alex !

[asdf1000]

7 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

No, I have not been able to listen to the final production board. I have no separate DACs with me at this point. The only thing I have is a SqueezeBox Touch which has an integrated DAC and headphone amp. (oh yeah the LPS-1 to power the SBT). There is no way I can listen to the board at this point, all I can do is plug a USB stick in and see that it does in fact work as a hub and transfer data.

 

When we moved I had to really streamline things and take the minimum amount of stuff, basically what would fit in the car. It will be July before I can actually hear this.

 

John S.

Thanks John. Really appreciate the honesty and full transparency. Even though it wouldn't affect my decision to purchase the ISO REGEN anyway, since there is a 30 day trial offered. 

 

Hope the search for a new place is going well.

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

On the questions about what I have tested, my testing has been before we moved, and primarily concerned with getting it to work with all sources and DACs. This product was very difficult to get out, we found all kinds of strange interactions between the isolator chip and the hub chip, and in isolated systems period. The last several months before we moved I was spending almost every moment packing, but Alex kept on bugging me to get the ISO REGEN working, so I spent as much time as possible on it. Well I got it done the day before I packed up the listening room, so I have not had hardly any time to actually listen to the final design.

 

John S.

 

 

John, I'm going to grab the bull by the horns here (respectfully as always of course).

 

Any chance you will publish test results of the original REGEN vs ISO REGEN?

Eye pattern measurements that have long been mentioned in other threads?

 

Obviously you don't have the gear to measure right now but I assume you did at some point?

 

Cheers! 

[asdf1000]

Hi Alex @Superdad (or John @JohnSwenson)

 

I asked about eye pattern measurements of the ISO REGEN vs original USB REGEN. Completely understand if you're not yet ready to publish measurements but it would be nice.

 

But in the meantime you've mentioned that the ISO REGEN has much better USB signal integrity than the USB REGEN (and everything else).

 

How about output jitter performance? Is ISO REGEN's output jitter performance better than USB REGEN? You did mention jitter issues during the design phase associated with this new jittery isolator chip I recall.

 

If USB signal integrity is better and output jitter is lower and output noise is lower (maybe related to jitter) than the original USB REGEN and leakage currents are blocked (like an Intona) then this is the holy grail.

 

Appreciate if you can share some technical stuff on the above, not really in comparison to any other products (I was naughty for mentioning Intona there) but specifically against the original USB REGEN.

 

Cheers, Sean.

 

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

John did not do captures of eye pattern tests during development.  It was a busy time back then (he was still working full time at the big ASIC chip company), and as everyone knows has since been moving and his lab is completely packed up.

 

Indeed our use of both the Crystek 575, and the particular USB 3.1 hub chip we chose, have improved SI.  More importantly the SQ impacts of this were very audible to us.  And not just to us:. Both @Jud and @lmitche here received pairs of very early beta units where the only difference between them was that one used the USB 2.0 USB chip of the original REGEN, and the other version had the 3.1 chip we had already selected--partially for compatibility--from among the major brands.  The pieces they received we marked only as "M" and "G", and we told them nothing else.  Within moments of separately playing them, they both chose as sounding much better the lettered box that had the 3.1 hub chip.

And by the way, none of the units we had sent them had the Crystek 575 clock as we had only 3 samples of the 575 (a special order in the required 24.0/25.0MHz rates), and we had a small run of 5 each of two board types so an apples-to-apples comparison could,be made. 

 

 

John can correct me if I am wrong, but for high speed USB (and Ethernet), jitter is just a component of signal integrity (as is amplitude, slew/edge rate, and noise) and is seen as part of an eye-pattern test.  I do not think traditional jitter measurements apply (as if there is such thing--I laugh when I see the designed-for-S/PDIF J-test applied to USB devices).

Besides, the really serious hardware for measuring clock and DAC jittter the right way is crazy expensive, though one of John's first projects once he gets resettled is to finish the design of an affordable replica of the famous John Miles Time Pod (known also as from first Symmeticom, and now from Microsemi for about $30K).  It is a project he has been anxious to complete for some time--along with another innovative measurement box.  There is a more than decent chance that UpTone Audio will someday offer some audio engineer targeted test equipment, since we have discussed buildability/useability considerations for these projects since the beginning.

 

 

Yes, the Silanna isolator chip adds amounts of jitter quite similar to what all traditional digital isolator chips do (the sort from TI, SilLabs, NVE, etc.) as used AFTER the USB input stages in many DACs/DDCs.  About 500ps as I recall.

 

 

 

That's what we think, but we will leave references to the "grail", fancy coined names for circuits, and flashy graphics to the marketing departments of others.  

 

 

While I know we will never satisfy your insatiable appetite for product information and gossip Sean,  I hope that my above disclosures keep your belly full for a little while.  The next step is for you to hear the ISO REGEN for yourself.  Did you get an order into the first batch yesterday? 

 

Well, time for me to put the iPad down and get out of bed to start a busy day.

Cheers,

--Alex C.

 

Wowza, epic reply Alex. Thank you!

 

The only thing that may not have been asked or covered, is how effective did you and John find the isolation function of the new isolator chip. Apart from being jittery does this new chip do it's primary function (isolation) really well and completely block groundloops and leakage currents? I'm guessing that's a big yes otherwise you wouldn't have selected it. It's sad I know but I like reading about this stuff.

 

I was fast asleep at 2am here in Australia unfortunately (there were a few Aussies on here and on Head-Fi and elsewhere that got their order in though) but I think it's definitely a case of when, not if, I get my order in :-)

 

Cheers again and thanks for the continued honesty and transparency here on the CA forum. There are a lot of shy people that just read and don't comment, that greatly appreciate all yours and John's contributions on here.

 

Cheers, Sean.

 

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Amazingly, there was something I meant to say but left out. 

 

There are a few devices that out there (Coolgear, AllDAQ, and a cheap one from Hong Kong) which use the same Silanna isolator chip we do (we've had the chip since December 2015, but it's use can be problematic for audio--and not just because of the jitter).

Those products use only the isolator (plus a switching regulator across the moat to bus power both sides), and the jitter is super easy to hear!  Actually they are a good lesson in what excess jitter in a USB chain sounds like.

 

 Our hub chip, great clocking, and superior power network design take care of the jitter from the isolator.

 

 

 

 

Great stuff. Thanks again.

 

PS: when you mentioned my "insatiable appetite for product information and gossip"

 

Production information (in the form facts) = yes, I have an insatiable appetite in understanding what my hard earned dollars are buying - understanding but ultimately trying of course.

 

If by gossip you mean a couple of our PM's, then my appetite is only equal to yours ;-) All said in good fun of course 

 

Cheers again mate

[asdf1000]

3 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

This one is tough. In order to try and measure this sort of thing I bought some older (then) top of the line test equipment from ebay, I can get great eye patterns with this, it is good for looking at the waveforms but useless for jitter measurement. The jitter from any of our devices is lower than what these devices can measure. The waveforms from the ISO REGEN look REALLY good. Unfortunately getting screen dumps is quite a complex task and very time consuming so I don't do it very often. I don't have any saved eye patterns so I'm not going to be able to post anything for quite some time. None of this equipment has USB interfaces that would make it easy, they work off of GPIB interfaces, or in the case of one of my scopes, a floppy! The scope take FOREVER to write an image file to the floppy, then I have to put it in a USB floppy drive to get it into my lab computer. BUT the image format is very old so none of the current programs will read it, so I have to run a series of conversion programs to get it into something that a modern browser can handle. Its a lot of work.

 

As for jitter measurements I have been looking for test equipment that can actually measure the jitter on actual USB data streams and have not found any that will get us into the area that our stuff works at - for any price. The ones that exist are designed for standards compliance not characterization at very low jitter levels.  So I'm designing my own. Unfortunately I can't start working on that until the new lab is set up, and then I will have lots of things to work on, so realistically it is most likely going to be a year before I have that device up and running. THEN I can actually measure the USB jitter. Oh yeah, the existing differential probes aren't good enough for this so I will have to build my own as well!

 

John S.

 

Thanks John! Not a big drama for me if you can't publish any wave forms / eye patterns until you're well settled in your new lab.

 

But when you say "The waveforms from the ISO REGEN look REALLY good" I assume you also mean significantly better than the original USB REGEN (from the waveforms / eye patterns you saw visually)?

 

 

Appreciated, as always. 

 

[asdf1000]

15 hours ago, satfrat said:

 

Hypothetical question for Alex or John, IF I had $300+ to spend, which would I be better off buying, a $380 LPS-1 for my present day USB Regen/Meanwell or a $310  ISO Regen to go with my Meanwell SMPS? Just curious,,, just in case something changes in my life.

 

Cheers,

Robin

 

Hi mate, I'm definitely not John or Alex and am just as curious about how the ISO REGEN performs as you, but with the 30 day trial you could buy both and return one for a refund, after your testing.

 

If I had to make a guess I would go with the new ISO REGEN to go with your Meanwell initially and add the LPS-1 when funds later allow. Only a guess though, as to which one to get first, like tossing a coin. Once it's out in the field there will be plenty of people that can help to test this out of you with their feedback too.

 

But the risk free 30 day trial is cool.

 

 

[asdf1000]

24 minutes ago, satfrat said:

 

Damn if that's not a marvelous idea, I could make up my own mind, keep the Regen w/LPS-1 or upgrade to the ISO Regen w/Meanwell and send back the LPS-1 for another day which I'm sure there would be once I sampled the Regen w/Meanwell vs ISO Regen w/LPS-1. I would know first hand how all the combinations work IN MY SYSTEM. 

 

Much thanks for telling me something I should have thought of on my own,,, duhhhh. Now I just need to find the money for at least one of them so I can sample them both.

 

Cheers,

Robin

 

Happy to help mate !

 

Check with Alex if that's cool with him of course LOL

 

The opportunity to test it in your own system, risk free, compared with deciding based on other's experiences in their system, is almost priceless :-)

 

I say almost because you have to pay postage costs to return it back to him but that's obviously very fair and common practice for returns.

 

Cheers, Sean

 

[asdf1000]

31 minutes ago, kalinka said:

Concerning the iso regen matching with other devices, could we assume that if something works well with the original regen it will work well with the iso regen either? Or the iso regen is too different from the usb regen for we to conclude that?

 

That's a very fair assumption I reckon. If you have an issue you'll be able to see if it's the isolation feature that's causing the issue (by dis-engaging it) but it's a digital isolator that's been in used for a while in other products, so very low risk of compatibility issues I reckon.

 

If you have compatibility issues you can always return it within the 30 day trial I'm guessing. I only repeat this because I think I think it's great for him to offer this. It takes any guess work out of the decision making process.

 

[asdf1000]

7 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Well anyway, back to listen to music.

 

John S.

 

Great stuff John ! It sounds like your'e very proud of your newest baby.

I bet you can't wait for everyone else to start enjoying it :-)

 

[asdf1000]

5 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Alex made it to Hawaii!

 

John S.

 

Hey John is he still taking and responding to order queries by e-mail? Or only when he gets back?

Cheers

[asdf1000]

39 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

ALOHA!

 

If this was you, would you be replying to bunches of e-mails?  Taking a break from that is one of the main points of this trip.  Celebrating our 29th wedding anniversary is the other.  

 

It will be a bit hectic when I get back--all those ISO REGENs to get out the following week, though  my assistant will be testing/assembling them while I'm gone.

So please everyone, don't expect a full reply to all e-mail until late in the week (of May 8th).  Order-related messages will be dealt with first. And those long messages seeking advise and comparisons?Well those will continue to grow older. 

 

Ha! Congrats and enjoy mate

 

[asdf1000]

13 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

No.  Both jacks on the ISO REGEN are USB 2.0 only.  We chose to this particular modern and compatible USB 3.1 hub chip for its terrific signal integrity, and only the high-speed (USB 2.0) mode is used.  

--Alex C.

 

Hi Alex, not sure if this is a stupid question but is the ISO REGEN output port BC1.2 compliant, for powering something downstream? Or is the output current limited to 0.5A? 

 

 

I know you don't want to discuss every product under the sun so you can ignore the following context, but I'm asking about an iFi iDSD Dac (charging the battery in Turbo mode can only be done with B1.2 compliant ports).

 

Cheers, Sean

 

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, JohnSwenson said:

The downstream port is setup as a standard port only, the VBUS regulator we are using cannot supply enough current to support a CDP port. If a device initiates the handshake to turn the port into a CDP port it will not get the answering signal from the ISO REGEN port.

 

The VBUS on the downstream port is actually current limited to 1A, so if a DAC tries to pull say 700mA it will work. It's not official spec, but I would rather give the DACs a little leeway rather than hard limiting to 500mA.

 

John S.

 

Nice, thanks John.

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, jamesg11 said:

So Sean, how do you then intend to run the iDSD with the isoREGEN, given John's reply?

 

Hi mate, I'll still use the iDSD and it will still be able to use Turbo Mode like now with my USB REGEN, so it will still slowly discharge the internal battery but that's fine :-)

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

If that is what Sean is after, then no, our REGEN's will not satisfy him.

 

Hi Alex, I was quite satisfied with John's reply above. Sounds like you need another holiday ! 

 

All said in good fun of course. I need one too....

 

[asdf1000]

7 minutes ago, Superdad said:

So are you saying that in Turbo mode (for low efficiency headphones) that the battery of the iDSD drains faster than a standard USB VBUS line can charge it?  

 

Unless you are saying that VBUS power is not enough on its own to support Turbo mode 

 

Yes and yes. From the horse himself/herself: 

 

Absolutely not a problem Alex.

 

As I've mentioned before, I just have a natural interest in understanding (at a high level) the features of the stuff that I spend my hard dollars earned on. Not only your products, but all the gear I have. I hope that's fair.

 

There aren't any short-comings, everything continues to be fine. It was just a general technical query,

 

Anyway that's too much time spent talking about the iDSD

 

I was quite jealous of your Hawaii photos posted so that may have to be my next holiday destination too 

[asdf1000]

Hi John @JohnSwenson

 

I'll ask this really silly question to you because Alex has enough on his plate at the moment (please no more spam jokes fellas  )

 

Just reading the ISO REGEN manual and seeing "and an ultra-low-phase-noise clock" reminded me of a dumb question I had previously thought of but forgotten to ask a long time ago, even before getting an original REGEN.

 

So if you have an isochronous asynchronous USB DAC that is the MASTER clock then what function/s does the clocking in the ISO REGEN (or original REGEN) perform?

 

Just for learning purposes only.

 

Even if you don't answer this very silly question I love the difference the original REGEN makes so it's clearly doing something (as thousands of customers would attest), even if I'm clueless as to what, and am obviously REALLY looking forward to upgrading to the new ISO REGEN.

 

Again I'm just asking about the clocking only, not the function of improved signal integrity etc, which (as above) is clearly obvious to everyone with an original REGEN - unless they're intertwined?

 

Again, sincere apologies for this very silly question. There's probably a really obvious answer I'd never thought of 

 

Cheers again, Sean

 

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

Not John or Alex (of course!) but my understanding is that signal timing to the USB receiver in the DAC is also important to help minimize the work (noise) that it does (creates) translating the incoming data.  

 

Understood. Probably the basis of my (very clearly wrong) understanding was my assumption that the USB DAC's MASTER clock (apologies for the all caps there) ignores all up-stream clocks ? 

 

I probably need a lesson on the relationship between a USB DAC's MASTER clock and all the SLAVE clocks up-stream. Do they still do 'stuff', except the MASTER has more control? 

[asdf1000]

Just now, Solstice380 said:

 

Yes, the clock in the DAC is used for timing the signal from the USB receiver to the conversion stage but the USB sending from the computer is timed also (8 kHz frequency).  Improving the accuracy and stability of that makes it easier on the USB receiver.  

 

Ahhhh. I thought the MASTER clock in the DAC only talked directly to the USB sending from the computer (and nothing in between). That's probably where my mis-understanding stems from.

 

So if the USB receiver is also involved then that's crystal (pun intended) clear why a REGEN helps a lot, right at the DAC's USB input.

 

[asdf1000]

21 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

The clock in the DAC is between the receiver and the conversion stage. The sending computer clocks out the signal from its USB.  That is the timing that a REGEN or some other re-clockers improves.  Helpful?

 

Thanks mate. Where does asynchronous fit it in here, for an isochronous asynchronous USB DAC.

 

In this case, the DAC controls the timing of packets from the sending computer directly? Or from the REGEN?

 

Or is it exactly the same as you've described.

 

[asdf1000]

Just now, Solstice380 said:

 

You've got me there!  Which DAC is ISO/async?  Asynchronous USB just means that the DAC USB receiver talks to the computer to send data at the correct rate to keep the receiver's buffer from running out.  The REGEN is transparent - it just passes through (but reclocks) whatever the computer sends.  

 

Isn't every asynchronous USB DAC also isochronous ?  

 

[asdf1000]

6 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

In another thread you started, I mentioned that modern USB DACs implement "isochronous transfer mode with asynchronous feedback". 

 

Thanks, yes that was useful in that other thread but in this different context I was wondering how a USB reclocker fits in this PC to Async USB chain, where the USB Dac is the MASTER. As in, if the USB Dac controls the overall timing of the sending PC, then what is the reclocker (like in the REGEN) actually doing?

 

But I think it's answered now by you 2 guys above.