Network card Clock upgrade

[Nouchka]

Hi!

 

I use a SOTM sms-200 directly connected to my audio server. For the moment this sms-200 is connected to one of the two embedded network card of the mainboard of my server.

 

I have ordered a PCI-e network card (Intel Pro-1000 GT). I will use this network card to connect my sms-200. I would like to upgrade the clock of this network card with a better clock (TCXO, OCXO or something even better like for example a FEMTO clock).

 

I wonder if someone has already tried to upgrade the clock of a network card? I think that upgrading the clock of a network card should have the same impact as upgrading the clock in a USB card. I did some research on Google, but I’m surprised that I found nothing about that.

 

So, do you have experience with clock upgrade on a network card, and do you know what the frequency of the clock in a network card is?

 

Thanks in advance

 

CAT

[plissken]

Hi!

 

I use a SOTM sms-200 directly connected to my audio server. For the moment this sms-200 is connected to one of the two embedded network card of the mainboard of my server.

 

I have ordered a PCI-e network card (Intel Pro-1000 GT). I will use this network card to connect my sms-200. I would like to upgrade the clock of this network card with a better clock (TCXO, OCXO or something even better like for example a FEMTO clock).

 

I wonder if someone has already tried to upgrade the clock of a network card? I think that upgrading the clock of a network card should have the same impact as upgrading the clock in a USB card. I did some research on Google, but I’m surprised that I found nothing about that.

 

So, do you have experience with clock upgrade on a network card, and do you know what the frequency of the clock in a network card is?

 

Thanks in advance

 

CAT

 

It won't do you any good. You can start music playback, let it cache up, and and pull the the network cable and it will still play. All the clock upgrading matters not since computerized audio playback isn't real time,

[Nouchka]

It won't do you any good. You can start music playback, let it cache up, and and pull the the network cable and it will still play. All the clock upgrading matters not since computerized audio playback isn't real time,

 

Yes your statement is interesting, but in this case why does upgrading the clock of a router (in the case we don't use a direct connection) makes a difference?

I personnally didn't try it, but I have read positive post of many users regarding upgraded router (PPA router), which have a TCXO clock instead of the stock clock.

[plissken]

Yes your statement is interesting, but in this case why does upgrading the clock of a router (in the case we don't use a direct connection) makes a difference?

I personnally didn't try it, but I have read positive post of many users regarding upgraded router (PPA router), which have a TCXO clock instead of the stock clock.

 

I have a video where I'm comparing a 315 foot cable and a 12 foot cable. In the video I pull the network cable out but my audio is still playing.

 

So what I would want to ask is what good is upgrading a clock on a NIC or router going to do since you aren't playing music off the cable but out of buffer, i.e. you can pull the cable?

[Nouchka]

I have a video where I'm comparing a 315 foot cable and a 12 foot cable. In the video I pull the network cable out but my audio is still playing.

So what I would want to ask is what good is upgrading a clock on a NIC or router going to do since you aren't playing music off the cable but out of buffer, i.e. you can pull the cable?

 

Yes but for example upgrading to a better CPU, improving the OS (server 2016 with AO, fidelizer), improving SATA cable and using better memory are ways to improve an audio server, but as you said audio is not in real time with ethernet ... so how could you explain these improvement are there?

 

I know this is always complicated to understand audio improvement in computer audio, because sometime that look just weird..... but that works

[plissken]

Yes but for example upgrading to a better CPU, improving the OS (server 2016 with AO, fidelizer), improving SATA cable and using better memory are ways to improve an audio server, but as you said audio is not in real time with ethernet ... so how could you explain these improvement are there?

 

I know this is always complicated to understand audio improvement in computer audio, because sometime that look just weird..... but that works

 

Even high-rez play back of 24/192 for a machine you would purchase today is child's play for CPU's.

 

Until someone sits down and allows for their sighted evaluation to be removed from the evaluation equation and shows that there is such a thing as 'Audiophile RAM' or 'SATA Cables' then there would be something to talk about.

 

I'm not interested in either conjecture or sighted evaluations.

 

Again you can pull the cable, therefore ruining the clock on the router/nic and your audio will still play back. It is what it is. Find me an honest subjectivist.

[shoom]

Even high-rez play back of 24/192 for a machine you would purchase today is child's play for CPU's.

 

Until someone sits down and allows for their sighted evaluation to be removed from the evaluation equation and shows that there is such a thing as 'Audiophile RAM' or 'SATA Cables' then there would be something to talk about.

 

I'm not interested in either conjecture or sighted evaluations.

 

Again you can pull the cable, therefore ruining the clock on the router/nic and your audio will still play back. It is what it is. Find me an honest subjectivist.

 

 

 

All interesting points but not answering the question from

the OP.

He did not ask why but how.

Do you have an answer or not.:-)

 

[plissken]

All interesting points but not answering the question from

the OP.

He did not ask why but how.

Do you have an answer or not.:-)

 

 

I answered the question:

 

Start playback, pull the cable, the music plays on. How about this: Explain how the music is playing and why, with the cable unplugged, what would the upgraded clock on the NIC be doing for us in this instance.

[Nouchka]

All interesting points but not answering the question from

the OP.

He did not ask why but how.

Do you have an answer or not.:-)

 

 

Yes this is an interesting point of view, but I would like to have others point of view because what Plissken says is that all improvements before the sotm sms-200 are not useful. I don't really agree with this statement because I have tried lot of improvements and some are really helpful

[shoom]

I answered the question:

 

Start playback, pull the cable, the music plays on. How about this: Explain how the music is playing and why, with the cable unplugged, what would the upgraded clock on the NIC be doing for us in this instance.

 

 

No you did not.:-)

You picked out a very small part at the end to make your own view known.

I’ve read your post re network cables (interesting and well done) and respect the work that you’ve done there but TBH the question was re clock modding with NIC.

Not.

Is it worth the effort.

So maybe you can let us be grown-ups and find out for ourselves and quit the back handed insults about subjectivists. That way we can hear, try and avoid some of the cost penalties (that should also suit your perspective) of the ready-made units.

I’m also looking for a DIY solution to Clock modding and would be interested in hearing some ‘’real hands on experience’’ rather than supposition.

Any takers.

 

[shoom]

Yes this is an interesting point of view, but I would like to have others point of view because what Plissken says is that all improvements before the sotm sms-200 are not useful. I don't really agree with this statement because I have tried lot of improvements and some are really helpful

 

Yes that's what i'm hoping to get at but well errrr just trying to be polite.

 

i'm with you.

 

Soldering iron at the ready;-)

[plissken]

No you did not.:-)

You picked out a very small part at the end to make your own view known.

I’ve read your post re network cables (interesting and well done) and respect the work that you’ve done there but TBH the question was re clock modding with NIC.

 

 

 

I've answered the original post.

 

Again, how can the clock of the PHY on either a router or a NIC card effect the audio playing if you have disconnected the cable?

 

Why are you avoiding an attempted answer?

[plissken]

All interesting points but not answering the question from

the OP.

He did not ask why but how.

 

I'm sticking to the original post. Not chasing down the SQ of a core i5 vs Ryzen or SATA cabled drive vs M.2.

[plissken]

No you did not.:-)

You picked out a very small part at the end to make your own view known.

I’ve read your post re network cables (interesting and well done) and respect the work that you’ve done there but TBH the question was re clock modding with NIC.

 

What is the clock modding of the NIC going to do for HEVC/ H.265 encoded 4K video? Colors sharper? Picture contrast better, less motion blur, more 3d 'ish', greater color saturation, larger color palette?

 

The clock on the NIC is fixed frequency. Each side syncs up and starts transmitting data.

 

Add to that, but isn't the GT1000 an old PCI (Legacy) adapter? Why not mod a current PCIe NIC?

[plissken]

Yes this is an interesting point of view, but I would like to have others point of view because what Plissken says is that all improvements before the sotm sms-200 are not useful. I don't really agree with this statement because I have tried lot of improvements and some are really helpful

 

We aren't talking about 'other improvements'. YOU specifically asked about modding the clock on a NIC. Your mind is already made up. Get the NIC, modify it, and enjoy.

[shoom]

We aren't talking about 'other improvements'. YOU specifically asked about modding the clock on a NIC. Your mind is already made up. Get the NIC, modify it, and enjoy.

 

Maybe you can show a little self control and stop trying to be the Batman of Computer Audio.

 

Guarding us against the evils of open mindedness.

 

if you can't be helpful then maybe you should do one.

 

Yes we'll have a hunt round and see if we can find any useful pointers and report back.

 

Thanks for nothing;-)

[jabbr]

It's tricky -- first of all clocks on real Intel NICs are already very very good -- check out Intel x520

 

Paul Pang starts out with really really cheap hardware -- ugh not sure that's advisable -- if you go fiberoptic you get better clocks then battery or LPS supply and that's better than good clock with bad supply.

[plissken]

Maybe you can show a little self control and stop trying to be the Batman of Computer Audio.

 

Guarding us against the evils of open mindedness.

 

if you can't be helpful then maybe you should do one.

 

Yes we'll have a hunt round and see if we can find any useful pointers and report back.

 

Thanks for nothing;-)

 

Again answer a simple question, if you can:

 

If you start music playback and you pull the Ethernet cable: What function is the upgraded clock on the NIC doing for the quality of the audio play back at this point?

 

That you are avoiding it means you are closed minded to the prospect that an upgraded clock is going to do nothing for you.

 

I'm open minded but not so open minded I've done let my brain fall out or lost the ability to critically think about the questions I've been asking you to answer. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it think.

[Jud]

It's tricky -- first of all clocks on real Intel NICs are already very very good -- check out Intel x520

 

Paul Pang starts out with really really cheap hardware -- ugh not sure that's advisable -- if you go fiberoptic you get better clocks then battery or LPS supply and that's better than good clock with bad supply.

 

jabbr - Any thoughts about how/why/if an improved (presumably) clock in a NIC might affect SQ?

[shoom]

Yes PP’s network switches look like they are made from pretty ‘’standard’’ boxes but with his mods some seem to like them better. Ihave not tried but would like to find out if such things can make a difference.

My first inclination is toward a DIY approach because that’s what I’ve been doing audio wise for quite some time now.

So some DIY network switch work may be on the cards after some reading.

It’s a shame that DIY seems to have a lower profile here but I’m sure that there are reasons.

That’s pretty much it.

I like to let my ears decide and ask for help when I need it.

 

 

[Harpy]

It's the preamble of the Ethernet Frame that syncs and sets the clock rate. Wouldn't be more algorithm based? I thought the oscillator just determined the speed of which the raw data is passed. That would still be in the physical layer. Do Ethernet cards have more than one clock?

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[plissken]

It's the preamble of the Ethernet Frame that syncs and sets the clock rate. Wouldn't be more algorithm based? I thought the oscillator just determined the speed of which the raw data is passed. That would still be in the physical layer. Do Ethernet cards have more than one clock?

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

The clock on the PHY is fixed rate at 25Mhz and the multiplied from there. It's all layer 1 which is being discussed and the actual oscillator being modified.

 

Are you referring to data rate negotiation?

 

Still has no effect on sound quality since we are dealing with buffered systems and the clock, and what is really being talked about here is the jitter performance of the Ethernet cable, isn't going to alter the data that is ultimately sent over since it's not real time.

 

Check out this short Adnantech discussion.

[Harpy]

Gotcha, was a little fuzzy on Ethernet. I didn't understand if there was more clocking going on other than the lan speed.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[jabbr]

jabbr - Any thoughts about how/why/if an improved (presumably) clock in a NIC might affect SQ?

 

I you are inviting me to speculate well then ...

 

Let's start at the DAC and work our way back. For DSD let's use the Signalyst DSC1 (because the discrete design is simple and published). The discussion thread is here:Signalyst DSC1 - diyAudio) which takes as input a direct DSD signal or alternatively for PCM the I2S or PCM signals e.g. the PCM1704 datasheet discusses: http://www.qlshifi.com/jszl/PCM1704.pdf

 

Let's assume that the signal integrity of either the DSD, I2S or PCM lines is of paramount importance.

 

From the network, the bits necessarily have a clock domain crossing from the NIC clock to the master DAC clock (e.g. BCLK).

 

Perhaps having low jitter on the NIC input improves the clock domain crossing and if so, might result in less jitter on the BCLK.

 

That could be tested.

[jabbr]

Yes PP’s network switches look like they are made from pretty ‘’standard’’ boxes but with his mods some seem to like them better. Ihave not tried but would like to find out if such things can make a difference.

My first inclination is toward a DIY approach because that’s what I’ve been doing audio wise for quite some time now.

So some DIY network switch work may be on the cards after some reading.

 

I greatly encourage your DIY approach, but rather than start with start with a $10 piece of hardware and then "upgrade", why not start with something really good and then try to improve. In any case consider the Intel x520 10g NIC. Consider its eye pattern performance and then consider what equipment you need to improve on its performance. DIY doesn't mean forgetting good engineering practices.