Genelec - What is the rave about?

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Kicking awake an old thread...

Being on the digital quest, I got all the wiser thanks to some posts here. In return, I'd like to offer my newfound knowledge.

1)
Genelec isn't picky. On top of AES, it'll gladly accept SPDIF signal, either 75 ohm or 110; anything goes. Just make sure the cable doesn't exceed 3 meter.

2)
If you're stickler and insist on 110ohm, take a look at Funk CASA-T (Funk Studiotechniks, Berlin). It's an affordable coax to XLR cable that passively bumps up the impedance; certainly the most simple and elegant solution out there.

3)
One remarkable USB to SPDIF converter is Schiit Eitr. Affordable @ $179 and as good as Mutec MC3+USB @ $1,000. It does re-clocking and some jitter reduction. Just run a short coaxial-XLR cable into your monitor and you're golden. If you're considering PUC2, then the Erir should be your choice: better performance at 40% of the cost.

4)
If you want a consumer experience where you sit at a distance from the monitors and wirelessly control operations, consider iBass DX150 or DX200 ($500 and $1,000 respectively). Not only can you store your music files on it, but you can also run Android apps such as SoundCloud and Spotify. Using your phone, you can then control the system from the comfort of your sofa. Both devices are fitted with an coax SPDIF output, and the SQ is identical since the internal processing of the digital path is the same.



 

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4 hours ago, pippenainteasy said:

Anyone compare the Kii Three to Genelec the Ones? (i.e. 8341 or 8351). I'm interested in building a nearfield setup.

 

Coaxials look like the best bet for nearfield, I haven't decided between passive or active. If I go passive it would be either KEF Reference 1 or TAD ME-1.

 

I guess the passive speakers use better drivers (bigger magnets, more exotic materials, larger voice coils, etc) whereas the actives have the advantage of DSP.

 

I was in similar circumstances, vacillating between the Kii 3 and Genelec “1”. In the process, I extensively read reviews and auditioned both systems.

 

First, those highly coveted speakers/monitors are true gems. All the gripes discussed below should be put in that context.

 

Off the gate, comparing the Genlec 8341/8451 to Kii 3 is “apples to oranges”; the latter can go down to 20HZ, whereas the former drop barely to 38hz/32hz respectively.

 

However, add a pair of subwoofers to the Genelec monitors and it’s whole different ballgame. Honestly, I immediately preferred that arrangement over Kii. Not only was the deep bass and coaxial emanation beguiling, but the benefits of the GLM were also very persuasive. In that regard, both systems sport DSP, but Genelec’s is more advanced and tunable, which is not surprising given the company’s robust R&D and its considerable resources. 

 

Incidentally, I ran into a German forum with a surfeit of posts comparing the two. Most preferred Genetec, despite being “unpatriotic” in doing so . If I find the translated compendium, I’ll post it later. 

 

As for Mr. Darko, I tend to view his opinions through a dubious lens. Like many other industry insiders, his interests aren’t necessary aligned with ours. Note that he purchased the Genelec out-of-pocket, while the Kii 3 were either a loan or a gift from the manufacturer. In fact, so tight is he with Kii, that their CEO gave an interview from Mr. Darko’s apartment. For me, it’s naïve not to suspect any bias.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7Srkc_HKuc Of course, it’s totally great to have Darko around. I love his clips and writeups.

 

At days’s end, you should listen to both systems  and form your own option. Ignore the salesperson and professional reviews. Many times, they have other agenda than yours. Ignore mine too…LOL

 

Personally, I purchased 8341 x 2 + 7360 x 2 and never looked back. Saved $4,000 along the way…

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6 hours ago, firedog said:

I'm not sure adding two subs is what the OP meant when he asked about a nearfield setup. 

 

I fail to see the contradiction.

The subs are tucked away on ground level and have nothing to do with nearfield or midfield application. The monitors, on the other hand, can be placed 40cm or over from the sweet spot. Yes, that's 40cm! The 8341 will comfortably fit most desktops, and certainly a mixing dock. Genelec sells many usuful stands for such purpose.

In contrast, Kii 3 are much more volmonious and hefty and can't be easily placed on a desktop nor stationed as close as the Genelec.

So here you have it, all spelled out.



 

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3 hours ago, phosphorein said:

 

Bill Parrish at GTT Audio also has a special on a new Kii system that he is advertising. As Firedog points out for a near field setup you probably will not need subs. I have good output to 15 Hz in my room and the DSP handles everything but room correction. I use Dirac Live for that task.

 

That's also not a staller advice or analysis.

The desire to have a subwoofer isn't driven by the listening distance, rather by the need to accurately monitor  LF. That need will be stronger if the music genre is more bass-heavy.

Droping down to 15Hz is admirable, but really makes no difference, since humen can't detect anything below 20hz.

At this price range, not having a room correction software is a shame. Indeed, once you experience the difference, you realize that DSP alone leaves a lot to be desired.

To the OP:
Do a lot of research, audition the systems, pererably in your room, and discount internet based opinions (including mine...)




 

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On 7/20/2018 at 10:02 AM, phosphorein said:

 

If you read my reply carefully, you would have known that I have DRC to use when I choose. In all your RESEARCH you also would have read that a number of reviewers have noted that the Kii often do not require DRC, especially in nearfield. That is also my experience.

 

But I do concur with your last sentence. Do your research, get auditions in your space and best wishes...

I was referring to the Kii 3 not having any room correction, not to your particular setup.

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40 minutes ago, dustblue said:

I used to think that 8351 are the best compact speakers, until I bought a pair of kii threes.

Simply put: no comparison.

Now both are in my small working room and I dont even want to turn the 8351 on.

 

Allow me to offer a contrerian opinion. I had both the Kii3 and 8431 x 2 + 7360 x 2 in my space. The Genelec sounded better, with the priceless assistance of the GLM. Kii3 simply doesn't offer that level of advance DSP correction.

 

The Genelec LF slayed the Kii's, and I found the latter to be more on the sterile side of the scale.

 

It's importamt what signal you feed the Genelec. AES, reclocked, is far superior to analog. 

 

Good sound to all... 

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26 minutes ago, dustblue said:

I have never tried genelecs with woofers. Do you think 8341+7360 sound unnatural by any means? Where do you put the twin subs?

 

I plan to use 1238+ twin 7380 for movie but the subs would be in the middle of each long side which is 3m away from main speakers, dont know if this would make stereo music sound strange.

 

Genelec has the best subwoofer/monitors integration by far. They's simply nailed it. The decoupling of the subwoofer from the rest of the frequency generators is an advantage, as it lends to a more flexible setup.  Most often, people spend considerable time moving the components around until they settle on the optimal layout. 

 

My rig in laid a classic 2 channel architecture, partially due to day-to-day restrictions. See attached images. With one 7370 (my initial configuration), the sound felt unbalanced,  leaving one side of my body cold.  Again, it's not a working space, so placement options are limited. The additional sub produced the sound I was looking for.

 

One more  critical tool in your arsenal is the GLM kit, through you can decrease/increase the db of each monitor/sub to your liking. For example, my default calibration was too bass-heavy , so I brought the subwoofers a few notches down.  With your computer in front of you,  you  can tweak the  system to a great extent.

 

One vital element I left unmentioned is placement. Genelec guides you very carefully how to set your system, including listening distances and angles, to attain a worthy sweet spot. Wide deviations from it have a deleterious effect on the SQ. On the other hand, Kii is  less of a "tool" in that sense. You put them speakers in a triangle topography and hope of the best.  

 

Lastly,  your tentative 1238 + 2 x 7380 layout adheres to Genelec guidelines, given the subs don't face you ("long side" is a bit ambiguous). In other words, if they are placed to your left and right respectively.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, dustblue said:

Looking good!

 

Did you find it any different/unusual sounded than traditional full body floor standers? I am always curious about the real difference between floor standers vs separate speaker+woofer combination.(theoretically if time domain behavior is adjustable like in GLM than separates should be better)

 

GLM could adjust time delay so you really want to put woofers in the ideal position in the room, which is not necessarily the same location with the speaker, GLM could achieve time domain coherence in one minute.

 

I plan to put woofers in the center of each of the long side is to follow Dr. Floyd Toole's book, there is a whole chapter talking about woofer position etc., you should check it out. Basically two woofers in two side centers is optimal(unless you want to use 4 woofers).

 

I just got kii for a day so maybe still biased, I'll see how I judge them several weeks later.

 

By the way do you have experience with other woofers like SVS, velodyn? do you think genelec woofers are better than those?

 

 

"Did you find it any different/unusual sounded than traditional full body floor standers? "

They're absolutely different, but I wouldn't call them "usual". On the contrary, the Genelec integration is so flawless, it's nary possible to tell the subs apart from the monitors, thus nothing registers as "unusual." 

 

Stand-alone subwoofers sit directly on ground level, so the travel path of low frequencies to your abdomen is more direct and impactful (yes, it's the abdomen which picks up all frequencies under 50HZ and follows to transmit the sensation to the brain). It was one reason the Kii didn't woo me, despite dropping down to 20HZ--I just didn't feel the bass as much as I'd like to.  Furthermore, as I expressed above, the flexibility in placement is a great boon. 

 

"I plan to put woofers in the center of each of the long side is to follow Dr. Floyd Toole's book, there is a whole chapter talking about woofer position etc., you should check it out. Basically two woofers in two side centers is optimal (unless you want to use 4 woofers)."

I'd be interested to read it. But I do suggest you consult with the Genlect User Guide as for alternatives. Besides, it's best to experiment. Spaces are diverse and vary acoustically (sorry for being trite).

 

"I just got kii for a day so maybe still biased, I'll see how I judge them several weeks later."

Kii is a fantastic system. If we  solely concentrated on the sound, I'd say only a long tryout of both systems side-by-side can serve as a litmus test (more trite). It took me a few hours to make up my mind. 

 

"By the way do you have experience with other woofers like SVS, velodyn? do you think genelec woofers are better than those?"

Only Yamaha and JL. A different league: The Genelec products consist of components manufactured by Genelec itself, for their exact purpose, not adapted OEM parts, with aluminum enclosures, rails and both analog and digital bass management.  The other's subs felt like an afterthought to offhandedly meet a market need. Besides, once you go Genelec, it's all the way--and if only because the GLM  has no affect on other makers' subwoofers.

 

 

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Trinnov is a stellar company, but software integration is best done on the hardware level, don't you agree? GLM has that built-in advantage. 

 

From what I gathered, many pros don't like Genelec because they sound "too good." I.e., it doesn't translate well on other systems. There's another horde that love them with a passion (Genelec had sold over 1 million monitors). But the naysayers don't go for kii; it's Adam and Focal e.t.c for them. 

 

If I were you, I'd test both systems, even if it entails shipping fees. That's going to be your baby for a long while....

 

 

 

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On 10/25/2018 at 4:58 PM, dustblue said:

Yeal that's why I bought both. last friday I almost bought a pair of Focal sm9(dealer's showroom product), it's the rust on the screws stopped me.

Hardware/software is actually not that important, the adjustments are always done somewhere in the signal pathway, for genelec & kii it's before DAC by DSP. If using third party DSP and then output to analog amp/speaker there would be actually no big differences.

  

Actually if Kii could expand their products line it would be very competitive to Genelec, I think the total Kii three sell volume is not exceeding 1000 pairs now, still many audiophiles even don't konw kii. Huge market for them. Bruno is really a genius.

 

 

 

Hardware/software is actually not that important, the adjustments are always done somewhere in the signal pathway, for genelec & kii it's before DAC by DSP. If using third party DSP and then output to analog amp/speaker there would be actually no big differences.

 

Well, I may be completely wrong, but by my analysis superimposing an external DSP on a sound system isn’t as simple.  I’ll humor myself and share my thoughts.

 

By definition, as you pointed out, external DSP requires a piece of hardware sitting between the monitors and the source. That said gear potentially does A=>D and then manipulates each channel to reduce the dB at given frequency internals to produce the flattest possible curve. 

 

This part is relatively easy. But inherent issues arise in a typical application:

 

1. This procedure’s outcome is a bit imperfect signal. If the monitors/subs do any further processing, SQ degradation is to be expected.
2. The crossovers are fixed, so the external DPS can’t compensate for nulls with crossover adaptation (meaning, dynamically adjust the low/high passes).
3. The external DSP system can’t handle more than a pair of monitors and associated subwoofers. The reason is that in a multi-monitor setup, each component has to internally store its own profile, lest all the nodes on each channel play them same sound.
4. Gain adjustment could also be subject to SQ degradation if it’s done in the digital domain before the signal is transmitted into the monitors. The art of bit dithering is not arcane, but the outcome may be in conflict with the monitor design.

 

Again, although I’m a software engineer and relatively well-read, I may be completely wrong. I’ve gone astray many a time...But if I’m correct, it safe to say The GLM implementation puts all those issue to rest.

 

I hope you have a GLM kit on hand. Using the by-pass button is quite an experience. Likewise, I hope you have the subs around too. They make a profound difference.

 

Actually if Kii could expand their products line it would be very competitive to Genelec, I think the total Kii three sell volume is not exceeding 1000 pairs now, still many audiophiles even don't konw kii. Huge market for them. Bruno is really a genius.

 

The man is a paragon of excellence, and the Kii3 is a marvel. The cardioid concept is brilliant. Still, I think Kii operates in different market than Genelec. As you suggested, it primarily caters to audiophiles, with custom color selection, piano finish and attractive floor stands. The prices are to match . Their biggest challenge is acceptance; many audiophiles are averse to active systems. 

 

On the other hand, Genelec caters to pros with value in mind, and has many competitors nibbling at its heels. It just happens that their products have an incredible sound quality that makes inroads into the audiophile market. 

 

Genelec R&D is a different league than Kii, with an array of highly-trained engineers, 40 years of experience and hundreds of thousands of diverse installations to glean knowledge from. Its production facilities are cutting edge and somewhat unique, with expertise in aluminum casting, circuitry design and production, and in-house built drivers.

 

Audiophiles tend to change gear often, and I feel that for that reason many brands build their components for superb performance but not for longevity. Kii is a mild example: their finish is prone to scratches and chipping.  I dread the thought of their shape in 10 year’s time.  

 

Genetec systems are built to last. I’ve had a pair of 1030a for 20 years now, and they still go strong, with not a single problem. Even the casing is in a great shape. They maintain the market value too. In twenty years, would you be able to sale a pair of Kii for 50% of their original price? I somewhat doubt it. 

 

Enjoy the auditioning. It's always fun.