Uptone Audio Regen - Clock Mod

[Blizzard]

Oh, there is some loss, or jitter or what have you in the double conversion. There always is at these frequencies. I do agree that switching the master clock on the DAC would yield more for the investment, but it is not universally better. Much depends upon what phase noise is present, not just how much.

 

Yes a suppose there's some jitter. MSBtech claims 2% of the jitter of coaxial SPDIF with I2S over LVDS. Although minute amounts of jitter may be introduced, far less than any other method of connecting an external device to a DAC is added.

 

Yes as for the clock, it definitely must be superior to the one it replaces to achieve good results. 10hz phase noise is the most important spec available on most phase noise charts.

[sandyk]

Perhaps you guys should wait until we see what John Swenson's "mystery PSU" can do for his carefully selected oscillator in the Regen before going to all this additional trouble, expense, and the risk of damage to the Regen ?

A variety of Super Reg , in which class John's design will almost certainly fall, used for the Regen's power will almost certainly improve performance MARKEDLY, and you won't need DBTs to verify it either!

[edbk]

Do I see Reference 3A suprema's on that photo?

[HenSch]

Do I see Reference 3A suprema's on that photo?

 

You are right!

 

A good friend of mine recommended these to me. Since they are quite rare he was looking for several years to get a pair and coincidentally we both found one at nearly the same time. I just love them.

 

How comes that you know them?

[edbk]

I used to own 4 master control's, hmm couldve been grandmasters, combined with a rel stentor. They were more common available in europe/the netherlands then in the US I guess ? loved the single capacitor crossover!

[HenSch]

loved the single capacitor crossover!

 

The simplicity of the Reference 3a's makes a very natural and coherent sound which I learnt to love very much.

 

My previous speakers were the complete opposite with 50dB (!) slope crossovers (Gauder Akustik Vescova). Over the years and my developing ears they have become sounding too technical to me. And above of that they were too power demanding with impedance minium down to and below 2 Ohms, which really restricted the choice of amps.

[edbk]

Where are you located approximately?

[zerung]

Perhaps you guys should wait until we see what John Swenson's "mystery PSU" can do for his carefully selected oscillator in the Regen before going to all this additional trouble, expense, and the risk of damage to the Regen ?

A variety of Super Reg , in which class John's design will almost certainly fall, used for the Regen's power will almost certainly improve performance MARKEDLY, and you won't need DBTs to verify it either!

 

Are the two not completely different thing?

I would assume the clock upgrade will have much higher gain than the PS? The clock cost is definitely an issue. I would rather add the PS add on to the Regen and then modify the Amanero clock.

[HenSch]

Where are you located approximately?

 

North of Hamburg.

[edbk]

Ahh a 3 hour drive, well maybe someday ?

[sandyk]

Are the two not completely different thing?

I would assume the clock upgrade will have much higher gain than the PS? The clock cost is definitely an issue. I would rather add the PS add on to the Regen and then modify the Amanero clock.

 

You are introducing other problems when using external highly stable oscillators powered via a separate mains derived power supply. There will inevitably be a degree of interaction via their mains supplies to earth.

[HenSch]

You are introducing other problems when using external highly stable oscillators powered via a separate mains derived power supply. There will inevitably be a degree of interaction via their mains supplies to earth.

 

You are right. I guess that's why a battery supply for the clock gave me a slight further improvement over any mains derived power supply I've tried. But honestly this difference is small.

[sandyk]

You are right. I guess that's why a battery supply for the clock gave me a slight further improvement over any mains derived power supply I've tried. But honestly this difference is small.

 

Ideally, you should supply the whole of the Regen with a superior power supply, which is the reason why John and Alex C will shortly release their "Mystery" PSU ,which I believe is almost certainly going to be well into "Super Reg." territory despite being supplied via a SMPS Plugpack..

[Blizzard]

Are the two not completely different thing?

I would assume the clock upgrade will have much higher gain than the PS? The clock cost is definitely an issue. I would rather add the PS add on to the Regen and then modify the Amanero clock.

 

Where is the Amanero in the picture here? The Vega uses an USB interface chip based on a FPGA made by Archwave. Not sure exactly how their USB interface clocking implementation works though.

[zerung]

Where is the Amanero in the picture here? The Vega uses an USB interface chip based on a FPGA made by Archwave. Not sure exactly how their USB interface clocking implementation works though.

 

That is what I am wondering too. If upgrading the USB receiver clock is better (Not withstanding SandyK's comments, which makes sense also), or better to upgrade the Regen clock?

I will need to try both.

 

 

HenSch, did you consider the cheaper Neutrino module? Seems like if the temperature is managed, this will be as good and cheaper + easier to implement as the power can be fed directly from the Regen.

NewClassD Neutrino Clocks

[Blizzard]

That is what I am wondering too. If upgrading the USB receiver clock is better (Not withstanding SandyK's comments, which makes sense also), or better to upgrade the Regen clock?

I will need to try both.

 

 

HenSch, did you consider the cheaper Neutrino module? Seems like if the temperature is managed, this will be as good and cheaper + easier to implement as the power can be fed directly from the Regen.

NewClassD Neutrino Clocks

 

The master clock is the best one to upgrade.

[sandyk]

Quote Originally Posted by zerung View Post

 

That is what I am wondering too. If upgrading the USB receiver clock is better (Not withstanding SandyK's comments, which makes sense also), or better to upgrade the Regen clock?

I will need to try both.

 

 

BTW, my comments were also based on actually listening to the Regen with both the supplied SMPS 7.5V plugpack and a 12V SMPS Plugpack followed by a +12V to +9V LM317T voltage regulator, then a "Super Regulator." You guys should be in for a real treat if John and Alex's "Mystery PSU" performs as well as I expect it will.

I would suggest that you hold off on clock modifications until you see what the new UpTone PSU design does for the Regen.

 

Alex

[4est]

Not to be argumentative, but these are wholly unrelated other than what to spend one's resources on. A clock upgrade does not become less desirable by adding on a better PS to the unit. If one enjoys a clock upgrade now, likely they will continue to after as well. I am not suggesting one spend $500USD on a clock for the Regen, but if one were considering that money for a master clock upgrade, I see no reason to wait and heartedly recommend it.

BTW, my comments were also based on actually listening to the Regen with both the supplied SMPS 7.5V plugpack and a 12V SMPS Plugpack followed by a +12V to +9V LM317T voltage regulator, then a "Super Regulator." You guys should be in for a real treat if John and Alex's "Mystery PSU" performs as well as I expect it will.

I would suggest that you hold off on clock modifications until you see what the new UpTone PSU design does for the Regen.

 

Alex

[Blizzard]

Not to be argumentative, but these are wholly unrelated other than what to spend one's resources on. A clock upgrade does not become less desirable by adding on a better PS to the unit. If one enjoys a clock upgrade now, likely they will continue to after as well. I am not suggesting one spend $500USD on a clock for the Regen, but if one were considering that money for a master clock upgrade, I see no reason to wait and heartedly recommend it.

 

 

I wonder at which point these tweaks start getting to the point of diminishing returns. No matter if you throw $20k at tweaking the USB system to perfection, your still bottlenecked by the USB interface inside the DAC. Perhaps spending the same money on a better DAC would reap better sound in the end with less costs and complication (not to mention resale value). Especially one with no USB interface at all.

[4est]

Agreed. Personally, I have zero loyalty to USB. I loved my Weiss DAC2, even as a firewire>spdif/aes device. It was hard to beat.

I wonder at which point these tweaks start getting to the point of diminishing returns. No matter if you throw $20k at tweaking the USB system to perfection, your still bottlenecked by the USB interface inside the DAC. Perhaps spending the same money on a better DAC would reap better sound in the end with less costs and complication (not to mention resale value). Especially one with no USB interface at all.

[sandyk]

I am not suggesting one spend $500USD on a clock for the Regen, but if one were considering that money for a master clock upgrade, I see no reason to wait and heartedly recommend it.

 

Perhaps the Master Clock upgrade is in the wrong item ?

This was the first time when using USB, that we have been able to get very close to what we have been getting from a PSU modified Perfect Wave Transport via coax SPDIF into a very good DAC.

BTW, we aren't talking about a simple bolt on clock upgrade PCB here using improved power, we are talking about a whole additional clock PCB, and another mains connected power supply

i.e. at least 2 separate units which should ideally then be housed together in a suitable screened case.

[4est]

I am not sure where you want to go with this. My experiences in digital DIY have found (master)clocking to have the most impact. That includes the power supplies for the clock. If one has the knowledge and fortitude, it is high bang/buck.

Perhaps the Master Clock upgrade is in the wrong item ?

This was the first time when using USB, that we have been able to get very close to what we have been getting from a PSU modified Perfect Wave Transport via coax SPDIF into a very good DAC.

BTW, we aren't talking about a simple bolt on clock upgrade PCB here using improved power, we are talking about a whole additional clock PCB, and another mains connected power supply

i.e. at least 2 separate units which should ideally then be housed together in a suitable screened case.

[Blizzard]

Perhaps the Master Clock upgrade is in the wrong item ?

This was the first time when using USB, that we have been able to get very close to what we have been getting from a PSU modified Perfect Wave Transport via coax SPDIF into a very good DAC.

BTW, we aren't talking about a simple bolt on clock upgrade PCB here using improved power, we are talking about a whole additional clock PCB, and another mains connected power supply

i.e. at least 2 separate units which should ideally then be housed together in a suitable screened case.

 

Did you try connecting the Perfectwave transport via HDMI I2S? Should put the coax SPDIF to shame.

[sandyk]

Did you try connecting the Perfectwave transport via HDMI I2S? Should put the coax SPDIF to shame.

 

Should being the operative word here.

How many members have (or even want) such a limiting format as HDMI I2S ?

You would be most likely be tied down to only a few expensive choices or perhaps DIY options.

We also need to remember here that the percentage of members who appear to very involved with DIY appears to be quite small.

[Blizzard]

Should being the operative word here.

How many members have (or even want) such a limiting format as HDMI I2S ?

You would be most likely be tied down to only a few expensive choices or perhaps DIY options.

We also need to remember here that the percentage of members who appear to very involved with DIY appears to be quite small.

 

Actually every other format besides I2S are the limiting formats. Unless your a big fan of jitter. Does the Perfectwave transport not have a I2S output? This is why I asked since it's the best way to connect it to any DAC.

 

The reason USB is used is so DAC's can interface with general purpose computers. Ideally any purpose built transport/renderer should be connected by I2S. MSBtech has been doing it since the 90's and PS audio for quite a few years. Sonore uses it on their flagship product as well as Wyred 4 sound and quite a few other DAC's.

 

If somebody is willing and ready to spend $3000+ just to tweak their USB system alone, I don't think transport/DAC combo's that interface via I2S are out of reach. Better yet is no cables at all and renderer built right in.

 

Personally I'd rather start off with a diamond rather than try to polish a turd.