Optical Network Configurations

[jabbr]

8 hours ago, taipan254 said:

 

1. I am not using one (yet); I've read this thread with great interest for awhile and am likely to go down the 10G path. MicroTik appears the most cost effective way to do so. 

 

2. Network moat would be 10G optical. For power, I use a Bluetti AC180 battery / inverter combo, so I have nothing coming from mains. The endpoint (UltraRendu right now), preamp, and DAC, and headphone amp are all powered off of the Bluetti or other batteries. 

 

The idea would be to have an "island" where network enters via fiber, and all power is sourced from batteries or the Bluetti battery / inverter combo.

 

I appreciate everyone's thoughts! Thanks!

 

Honestly if you power your audio area in an isolated fashion e.g. batteries but I use a heavy iron balanced transformer myself then there is zero need to power your network equipment via battery: glass doesn't transmit electricity.

[dbastin]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

This is the problem with guessing. I researched inverters when having my home built a few years ago. There wasn't a single one that exceeded the requirements the power utility was required to meet for power supplied to my home, and the vast majority were worse. Keeping the audio system inside the home off the same circuits devoted to in-house noisemakers like refrigerators, A/C systems, LED lights, even appliances with microcontrollers, is a far more effective means of reducing noise than generating your own power.

Using 12v LiFePO4 batteries to supply 12v devices is 'relatively' easy and cost alot less than reducing AC supplied noise to the same degree (conditioner, power cords, LPS), the battery cost less than some fuses.

 

But, inverters seem a gamble.  Some people get pleasing results from the all in one camping battery/inverters.  Given my amps peak power supply is 4000w each channel, it's a costly gamble ... the inverter + battery cost more than a power conditioner.

 

I digress

[Jud]

27 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Using 12v LiFePO4 batteries to supply 12v devices is 'relatively' easy and cost alot less than reducing AC supplied noise to the same degree (conditioner, power cords, LPS), the battery cost less than some fuses.

 

I've got a used Topaz transformer and one of these, which together cost perhaps $450. https://zerosurge-com.3dcartstores.com/

[jabbr]

I our ongoing series of state of the art, yet never needed for home networking, devices, I present a ConnectX-7 200GbE NIC:

https://www.servethehome.com/nvidia-connectx-7-ocp-nic-3-0-review-2-port-200gbe-and-ndr200-ib-mellanox/

 

What strikes me as incredible is that it matches the bandwidth of a local NVME SSD.

What is also incredible is that they work with bog standard PSUs without causing the bits to get blown everywhere by stray voltage spikes.

[jabbr]

6 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I've got a used Topaz transformer and one of these, which together cost perhaps $450. https://zerosurge-com.3dcartstores.com/

I'm crazy enough to have those vibration isolation cups under them

[Superdad]

52 minutes ago, jabbr said:

What strikes me as incredible is that it matches the bandwidth of a local NVME SSD.

Wow. Just wow. 

[lmitche]

On 5/8/2024 at 12:23 PM, Superdad said:

Wow. Just wow. 

Have you seen this?

 

What Is NVMe over Fabric (NVMe-oF)? Benefits & Use Cases (starwindsoftware.com)

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Have you seen this?

 

What Is NVMe over Fabric (NVMe-oF)? Benefits & Use Cases (starwindsoftware.com)

The network, now, is truly the computer

 

FWIW, a big reason why NVidia bought Mellanox (and AMD bought Xilinx) is that the NIC does the NVMe-oF processing

[hltf]

On 4/13/2024 at 10:22 AM, hltf said:

Paying more attention now to this suggestion @SQFIRST, for which my thanks. Yes, I have heard this before, but in my earlier not extensive testing (admittedly) I found that it was actually a bit better in my case to have clean linear DC power for both TP-Links, even though both were being fed by the two outputs of the same Uptone JS-2.  I should revisit this to make sure when I make all these upcoming changes with the Finisars, 10GTeks etc.  Do you feel it could/should be better if I were to use an IFI SMPS for the first 10GTek (or TP-LINK) unit that is receiving ethernet signal from my Verizon router?  And feed the second 10GTek alone from the JS-2?

 

Also, as others here have suggested above, I have also thought of eventually moving from the 10GTeks to a combination of Sonore units or Sonore/Uptone units for the ethernet-optical-ethernet conversion.  Or maybe just a superior switch like the LHY that @audiom3  mentioned.  I figure I will first try and understand the options a bit and see what makes most sense based on the options available and how much potential SQ gain I might get from it relative to where I land now with the 10GTeks/Finisar/Corning. 

 

Thanks for all the very useful advice I have got here.

Hi, looking for a bit of help again please with optical connections.  

 

I just bought a Holo Audio Red Network Streamer to connect to my Pass Labs D1 DAC.  The Holo Red should be here in a week or two I suppose. 

https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/holoaudio-red-ddc-network-streamer/

 

It struck me that making all optical connections from the latter of my pair of FMC isolators to the Holo Red Network Streamer, and then from the Holo Red to the Pass Labs D1 DAC would be the ideal way to go.   I don't know if this is possible because the Holo Red and the Pass Labs both allow only Toslink optical connections.   So that is my first question for anyone.

 

And second, it seems to me that I would have to replace the second 10GTek in my chain (i.e., the one that would feed the Holo Red) with something that allows an optical output.  I am guessing that while getting a SFP-cum-ethernet switch to serve in place of the second 10GTek with additional optical output should be easy in one sense, say a MikroTik CRS305 or something that people here like.  But in this way I believe I still would not have the Toslink optical connection that is needed as an input for the Holo Red.  I wonder whether my notion is even workable?  Or are these optical signals not possible to convert from SFP/SC to Toslink in the way that I would need?

 

I am a novice so my descriptions/assumptions may be confusing or even wrong.  Maybe I just have to work with ethernet into the Holo Red?  And maybe having this be an optical connection would not yield any benefit?

 

Many thanks for any advice.

[jabbr]

Just as all copper wires don’t connect to the same places, nor do all optical fibers: TOSLink and fiberoptic Ethernet are entirely different 

[hltf]

2 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Just as all copper wires don’t connect to the same places, nor do all optical fibers: TOSLink and fiberoptic Ethernet are entirely different 

I see thank you for the tip.

 

Guess I will just stick to ethernet.

 

 

[dbastin]

1 hour ago, hltf said:

I see thank you for the tip.

 

Guess I will just stick to ethernet.

Yep.  Use the shortest (a few cm) wired ethernet possible, UTP (unshielded) or shield only connected at upstream end ... or there are DIY concoctions of cable wrapped around magnets and with 'filters' clipped on ...  or try 'audiophile' type ethernet cables.

 

Toslink to you DAC has advantages of optical but limited bit rate, whereas the other formats can have higher bitrate and so you can use upsampling which filters the signal (to varying extents).  You have to choose what suits you.  BTW, not all toslink cables sound the same, which applies to cable for the other formats too (AES, SPDIF, etc).

[lmitche]

11 hours ago, hltf said:

I see thank you for the tip.

 

Guess I will just stick to ethernet.

 

 

Best to use fiber, or another ground isolating solution, to avoid creating ground loops. Copper cul-de-sacs are good, with isolating links placed to avoid a second route to ground. 
 

Besides fiber, usb isolators, isolated power supplies and transformers can also be used to break ground loops.

 

All four isolating solutions are in use here.

[hltf]

Thanks @dbastin and @lmitche for the helpful advice.

 

The Pass Labs D1 DAC is limited to 16/48 and 16/44 so TosLink should be OK for the connection from the Holo Red to the DAC.

 

And for the other one I will use a very short unshielded ethernet RJ45 cable.

[simonp]

 With the arival of the OpticalRendu deluxe and the optical module deluxe, I thought, let's get the EtherRegen out of the way. The EtherRegen has an external clock in use, the BG7TBL. Unfortunately, little was left of the leap forward. Without the EtherRegen, the magic was gone. Can this be explained?

[hltf]

On 5/18/2024 at 8:31 PM, hltf said:

I see thank you for the tip.

 

Guess I will just stick to ethernet.

 

 

Hi:

 

I have been looking at this unit on eBay:  Cisco C3850-NM-2-10G at this link:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226145819181?_trkparms=ni_actn%3Anav|ni_nt%3ASellerInitiatedOffer|ni_apos%3A1|ni_sg%3A1|ni_pos%3A1|ni_st%3ANEW|ni_wh%3A1|ni_nid%3A642101094573|ni_nsid%3A226145819181|ni_et%3A1718376907556|ni_bn%3A1&_trksid=p2380424.m570.l5997&ul_noapp=true

 

I am wondering if I would be able to pick up one or two of these and place each in the appropriate switch box/chassis equipped with (say ideally 2) ethernet RJ45 outlets and a power inlet.  If so, does anyone know who makes such a switch box/chassis and where I might find it?

 

Again, pardon the possibly naive question...

[SQFIRST]

22 minutes ago, hltf said:

Cisco C3850-NM-2-10G

Hi @hltf I will share a little of what I have picked up along the way. I too tried out the Cisco switches for optical isolation and found them to be very effective. 

For the unit you are looking at the matching switch would be the Cicso WS-C3850 series.

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/lan/catalyst3850/hardware/installation/guide/b_c3850_hig/b_c3850_hig_chapter_011.html

What you propose can be done but there are few caveats:

-Some networking knowledge is needed to setup and configure the units

-Size can be a factor as these are not small and setting up a pair will require some kind of a rack

-Heat/Fan will be a part of the setup

Units like these Ciscos that are available cheap used are a real bargain and can be very effective for audio setup but ultimately will come down to how you organize the components, the comfort level of networking related work and how it plays into the rest of your audio setup.

Good option though.

 

[SQFIRST]

4 hours ago, simonp said:

With the arival of the OpticalRendu deluxe and the optical module deluxe, I thought, let's get the EtherRegen out of the way. The EtherRegen has an external clock in use, the BG7TBL. Unfortunately, little was left of the leap forward. Without the EtherRegen, the magic was gone. Can this be explained?

I use an ER along with other optical connections and have similar experience. While the discussion maybe more along the line of ethernet 'clocking' and not about optical purely (the part past the optical benefits), the change from the usage is rewarding enough to where I do not want to remove the ER.

What I can attribute this to is that there is some positive alteration to the ethernet signal taking place when a good external clock is feeding the ER. The manner in which the unit processes (the ADIM in ER) the signal is unique and creates a richer experience. It shows up in video streaming as well as the audio endpoint.

Again, not encouraging the clocking discussion in optical thread but did want to add my conclusion from experience.

 

[simonp]

Oke thanks, would be nice to have a clock input on the optical module and the OpticalRendu as well. 🙏

[SQFIRST]

@simonp To me it is a case of different products tackling different issues and not so much of clocks making the difference. The products are each operating in difference capacities and providing their own benefits. Not all setups will benefit or respond in same way so it is subjective.

[hltf]

21 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

Hi @hltf I will share a little of what I have picked up along the way. I too tried out the Cisco switches for optical isolation and found them to be very effective. 

For the unit you are looking at the matching switch would be the Cicso WS-C3850 series.

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/lan/catalyst3850/hardware/installation/guide/b_c3850_hig/b_c3850_hig_chapter_011.html

What you propose can be done but there are few caveats:

-Some networking knowledge is needed to setup and configure the units

-Size can be a factor as these are not small and setting up a pair will require some kind of a rack

-Heat/Fan will be a part of the setup

Units like these Ciscos that are available cheap used are a real bargain and can be very effective for audio setup but ultimately will come down to how you organize the components, the comfort level of networking related work and how it plays into the rest of your audio setup.

Good option though.

 

@SQFIRST thanks once again for the help and the pointers. From what you say it is clear that I should stick with a simpler plan of something like a G10Tek (which I have akready) at the start of my optical patch and at the other end most likely an Ether-regen.  And from the ER on to the streamer/DAC.

 

I think I will wait until the new ER becomes available before making any further changes.

[SQFIRST]

On 5/19/2024 at 2:24 PM, hltf said:

The Pass Labs D1 DAC is limited to 16/48 and 16/44 so TosLink should be OK for the connection from the Holo Red to the DAC.

@hltf did you try this?

[hltf]

Yes @SQFIRST, I used the Toslink input of my PassLabs D1 DAC quite a lot in the past.  Is that what you are asking about?

[SQFIRST]

I was curios if you did get any improvements with that. Depending on how you applied power separation, there could be room for improvement such as putting the DAC on an isolation transformer. The ethernet cleanup will ultimately end up needing power domain separation as well.

[hltf]

1 hour ago, SQFIRST said:

I was curios if you did get any improvements with that. Depending on how you applied power separation, there could be room for improvement such as putting the DAC on an isolation transformer. The ethernet cleanup will ultimately end up needing power domain separation as well.

I haven't used my Pass Labs D1 dac for a while, but when I did in the past with an Oppo player I used to like the optical input best.  OTOH from the very good DCS Network Bridge I used to have (now sold), I used to prefer the AES/EBU input of the Pass Labs DAC.  Most of the time nowadays I use a Bartok DAC with its built-in streamer, so I don't need a separate streamer for that.  But I still have the Pass Labs as a spare dac and want to be able to use it as a back-up, so I got the Holo Red for it.  I plan to check out the Holo Red on the DCS as well, though I doubt it can better the internal streamer of the Bartok when fed by the Roon Nucleus.  As you may know the Holo Red has a Raspeberry Pi internally.  Let's see how they compare I guess...

 

I don't have an isolation transformer specifically but I do have  a very good Balanced Power Transformer unit for all my audio gear which is fed by a dedicated power circuit.  This bigger BPT unit feeds two Uptone LPS which serve two 10GTeks and a Roon Nucleus, and also powers directly Bartok, Linkwitz speaker crossover (no preamp in my setup) and two Parasound multi-channel amps.  

 

Right now I have the first 10GTek and the Nucleus served by one of my two Uptone JS-2s, while the other JS-2 only serves the second 10GTek which sends ethernet to the Bartok.

 

A separate power circuit feeds the Verizon FIOS modem and a Verizon router and the power for these two things also goes through another smaller BPT unit.

 

I suspect the BPTs provide some of the isolation you are talking about as well as cleaning up the power.  Though perhaps I can improve my setup further, not sure.... Especially perhaps with the ethernet cleanup as you say.