Optical Network Configurations

[SQFIRST]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:13 PM, jabbr said:

What you want to do is keep the first FMC entirely outside your conditioned power area of your audio system. That way the only inputs to your audio area are

1) fiber

2) conditioned power -- and ideally your power conditioner is isolating

Very good advice.

 

This is such a crucial setup control point and so hard to figure out on your own. Wish such isolation principles were easier to find or more widely known. I suppose there is an enjoyment in the self discovery method also, that is, hours and hours of frustration chasing it down if at all!

 

[SQFIRST]

9 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

My suggestion is to first get everything "right" in the audio system. 

 

once you have the audio side fully optimized, perhaps your system will sound so good, that your time would be better spent enjoying the music than tweaking further with gear.   

 

That's great advice!

 

 

33 minutes ago, juniorbudel said:

In this scenario, can power supplies or less noisy equipment (in my case I have the Roon Server and the router in another room) interfere with the SQ of the setup?

I will add that if one is using a roonserver then things can get blurry (debatable) on what helps. It may seem innocent and easy but can be a beast of a challenge to clean up. All I will say is that since it directly affects the audio quality in one's setup, whatever improvements you make for/around/inside it, shows itself regardless of clean or dirty side.

[SQFIRST]

I was not questioning the isolation aspect of fiber but rather pointing that a roonserver needs careful integration.

In my experience the Roonserver itself changes the sound quality as a source component. I don't use hqplayer so am not able to share if that does clean up any issues from the roonserver. Power supply on the roonserver certainly made a difference in my setup and it is upstream before the fiber isolation. 

[SQFIRST]

@jabbr thank you for the explanation on controlling noise with isolation transformer. Your insight is helpful and it is apparent that you are knowledgeable on the topic.

Since my initial comment to @juniorbudel  was unclear (I didn't want to go off topic with a Roon discussion) I want to clarify a little further. The question, if I understood correct, was whether power supply and hardware can improve sound quality from a Roonserver. This is in addition to power and network isolation for the main audio setup. In the past I shared some of my experience here:

I find that the Roonserver is similar to any source component in the system and benefits from good power supply and careful setup. I am open to learning new things and changing course that creates better listening experience so I am interested in hearing any different experience others have.

 

As long as one is hearing good sound and enjoying their music, that is all that matters!

[SQFIRST]

@jabbr thank you for sharing. It is an impressive setup. I can certainly appreciate the jitter control and subsequently, better audio quality aspect in your implementation. My current network state is a simple home user setup. Now that I know about the tech in the Mellanox it will certainly be on my radar. Thank you again for your pointer on balanced power isolation as I implemented that on the power section for my roonserver and it is significantly quieter now.

[SQFIRST]

53 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I'd remove the Roon server from your audio area and use the balanced power for your audio area... my 2p I've also put my equipment on ball bearing / cup based vibration isolators so 😝

 

It is upstream of my audio chain. I understood what you are saying and appreciate your help and great information, thanks again. Ball bearing isolation is really good.

[SQFIRST]

Finding the discussion really interesting and I think I am more impressed with @jabbrs debating skills, as good as their technical grasp is. I have gotten some very good pointers from jabbr that set me in the right direction and I only speak to things that I actually tried myself. I do see a benefit of 10g isolation now as well as balanced power isolation. However, I need to say that myself, and I assume a lot of audio lovers that are getting into serious streaming, do not have the kind of robust network (10G and up) or aspirations of one. Everyone will get to their optimum in a different manner. Products like the EtherRegen helps the average user as it boosts their audio/network quality, general understanding and if nothing else, sets them on the right path. Information from this thread is valuable but it can get confusing without the correct orientation and understanding. It comes down to curating the appropriate information and the fun of trying things.

Thanks all for a great discussion!

[SQFIRST]

On 1/31/2023 at 9:42 AM, dbastin said:

broadband service > cable 1 > ER Side b - side A > fibre > Mikrotik CRS 305 (router) > cable 2 > Antipodes server > cable 3 > WAP > wifi > Devialet

 

 

@dbastin - just came across your post and the details and wanted to share from my recent experience in case it helps:

A single CRS305, connected with your ER SFP(1000base-x), may not be benefiting from the 10gbe protocol as it is most likely using the 1000base-x circuit. Adding a second 10gbe fmc/switch, such as another CRS305, to connect with your current CRS305 Router will then be making a true 10gbe connection and should show effective jitter isolation. You might even find a better position your ER once you see the results.

 

[SQFIRST]

PFSense possible? Would be awesome...

[SQFIRST]

16 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

PFSense possible? Would be awesome...

Got overly excited just from the pics as it has two ethernet and a 10gbe sfp port. It seems a no on running something like pfsense. Interesting product.

[SQFIRST]

Respecting the discussion ongoing about the Taiko switch and without any specific interest on that, I would like to add my own civilian experience that I have recently started using my fiber connections preferring the copper SFP/SFP+ over the previous fiber-fiber method that I used. I am finding the sound quality and network quality in general to improve with this. Probably due to less noise on the SFP port and also less total conversion overhead due to single point of interface. This also helped eliminate some FMCs that I no longer need as I can go straight into the SFP port with RJ45. I have found that this still maintains the fiber isolation benefits. A huge jump in sound quality when I used a 10GBase-T SFP to connect my Roon server. I use a Mikrotik CRS305 switch so it is not any special hardware. Again, not wanting to add or remove anything from the Taiko discussion but only sharing related to copper SFP.

[SQFIRST]

@di-fi I am using generic cat5e ethernet cables going into 1000Base-T SFP to RJ45 tranceiver that I picked up as an arbitrary choice, pic below. The connection is regular copper RJ45 port > SFP-RJ45 port as shown for the Input side of the diagram that you posted. I may be wrong but I think the DAC Cables are SFP > SFP and should still have isolation. My comment was about the overall improvement in audio/video when I replaced SFPs (and their counterpart FMCs) with Copper SFPs in the switch. 

 

[SQFIRST]

Apologies if I unintentionally posted anything misleading. I endeavor to only post my experience and avoid coming at it as an expert, which I am not. 

 

Thanks to all for follow ups and clarifications! :)

 

I do have an EtherRegen that reclocks before the final leg which is optical. I find isolation can be a combination of methods and each can choose their favorite(s). The observations about copper SFP that I posted were about the pre-isolation switch that connects all of my source devices. Because I saw a comment earlier regarding the RJ45 SFP I wanted to share my positive experience with them. This was not intended to read as optical is optional for isolation. 

 

@Superdad I am actually enjoying feeding the ER with a SFP-RJ45 in its SFP port as the only input signal on A-side. It is working out great for me.

[SQFIRST]

On 4/18/2023 at 2:40 PM, jabbr said:

The term "Rejection ratio" is used to indicate the degree to which a system rejects noise from getting through. "PSRR" is the degree to which a power supply rejects noise from input. "CMRR" describes the degree to which common mode noise is rejected

@jabbr Thank you for your helpful distillations throughout the thread. The nuggets such as the terms above are good to be aware of while trying things out. This thread has been of great help in learning about optical networking and isolation.

[SQFIRST]

38 minutes ago, audiophilac said:

Would there be another Layer 2 SFP+ switch, fanless that could work with eR?

I'm currently using Aruba POE switch with four SFP+ ports.

It sounds like your issue is at the other end and not with the ER but you may have better luck on the ER thread if otherwise.  For context to folks following this now, what are the fiber modules you are working with? (at both ends)

 

Unless the networking device is restricting by manufacture ID, such as Cisco, then any SFP(1G) module works in pairs in most devices. If you are trying to make an SFP+ (10G) module inserted into a 10G port (as the Aruba) and connecting to a 1G port (as in the ER) then you cannot do this unless and until you use a Dual Rate Specified SFP+ module AND the ability of console management to set the speed to 1G in the 10G device. Keep in mind that specifications need to support this both for the SFP+ module (datasheet) and the network device board specifications.

 

Others in this thread and myself have used dual rate SFP+ in Mikrotik (CRS305 in my case) and connected with a 1G device (ER in my case) just fine. I found that RouterOS, the default OS for Mikrotik, does not provide the option to set the speed but Switch OS (needs to be selected manually) has the option. Ultimately, I found no gain in doing this and no longer use the Dual Rate speed setting for my purpose.

 

Audiom3 has covered some really good experience in his original post, specifically about using 10G multimode optical for core networking and Single mode for endpoints. I wanted to reiterate this information for the Optical networking thread as my experience concurs with this to be providing good results. Combined with proper power isolation this will get most folks all that they need.

 

I still use the ER with my X1 in B>A for that last mile uptick. Quantitatively - I move my volume up 3db with the ER as compared to without, Subjectively- vocals are more pleasing. As with all audio treatments results will vary and we all have our preferences.

 

Hopefully not stirring things in the wrong direction but just wanted to add my experience.

[SQFIRST]

31 minutes ago, audiophilac said:

ftlx1475d3btl

In a 10G board, such as the CRS308, the SFP+ module specifications hold. From the Datasheet:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/610/finisar_ftlx1475d3btl_rohs-6_compliant_10g_10km_13-1272466.pdf

As mentioned in datasheet bullet #2 this only supports 10G

I have seen the term dual rate used interchangeably to indicate running an SFP+ at 1G on a 1G network device vs the actual dual rate specification from the manufacture. Seemingly both are dual rate, except one is restrictive and official (when using 10G board).

example: Ftlx1475d3BCV

https://datasheet.octopart.com/FTLX1475D3BCV-Finisar-datasheet-137383310.pdf

 

If you have a 1G device with optical port you should be able to use the modules you have and connect with the ER. It is frustrating when things do not work.

 

[SQFIRST]

6 minutes ago, audiophilac said:

it's odd the aruba jl683a sfp+ works with eR. but oh well.

Sounds like you got past your issue? That's great!

 

If you dig into the device specifications for the Aruba you may get your answer. My guess is that it does not enforce the SFP+ specifications by design, unlike the Mikrotik. A quick glance at model JL683A I noticed that they specify their 10G ports as 'SFP/SFP+' perhaps indicating a specific ability to handle both ways. 

 

[SQFIRST]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

So I assume you’re not sure it it’s a multi mode or single mode cable ?

Typically orange is used for OM1 MMF so most likely it is 10G SR. It's strange that neither the listing or the packaging mentions this specification.

[SQFIRST]

@charlesphoto ha! I had only looked at your picture of the setup and my monitor shows it as orange. Thanks for sharing a positive experience.

[SQFIRST]

20 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

No worries, it's all extraordinarily confusing, even for those of us who have been at it for bit.

It's a bit like a Dilbert cartoon of meaningless information. There is no mention of whether it is multimode or singlemode regardless of Latch color (not helpful) or product listing. One can infer that with AOC being short cables that it is multimode (Short Range - SR). The use of industry standard fiber cable color, orange for multimode, can also be used to guess. Browsing around there are other compatible listings of this unit that actually do mention multimode 850nm SFP+.

 

[SQFIRST]

33 minutes ago, jabbr said:

manufacturer can use whatever they want and no particular standard as long as the cables transmit the bits

No doubt and the change from the otherwise specification heavy world of Optical cabling was what I was finding bit amusing in this instance. 

 

34 minutes ago, jabbr said:

lookup MPO/MTP

Thanks! high density cabling, awesome. 

 

[SQFIRST]

19 minutes ago, sandston said:

Every day this hobby leaves me feeling like John Snow.

Winterfell or the physicist? Both can apply...

[SQFIRST]

DACs are usually for high density cable optimizations and typically specs SFP+ and up. For data centers the low latency, zero power consumption and short run implementations to reduce AOCs and Fiber are some of the advantages. This one appears to be specifically modified to support down to SFP. I sense this targets use cases such as the Taiko gear with SFP ports. For such specialized cases I think the main advantage over regular SFP would be the zero power consumption with DAC cable. RJ45 is not in this realm as it is SFP to SFP connections. Will be interesting to see if any reports of gains in the normal setting come up.

[SQFIRST]

Just some suggestions in case you haven't tried:

Is your ER clock input switch on int or ext? To eliminate any external clock issues, which can certainly happen, it is best to operate ER on Int for checks and tests.

If possible to check for bad SFP modules try swapping each out one at a time for any potential issues there.

[SQFIRST]

Good luck on your setup change @Iving

Since you are trying things out why not give 10GB protocol a try? It has proven quite effective for me and I learned about it from this thread. In your case it will require an additional endpoint prior to the ER. It is certainly worth exploring if one is open to it.