PC Guy With Apple Question (Apple TV/Airport Express)

[Gary.D.Olson]

Just to make it clear, you do not need a Mac for AirPlay - and JRiver does not work properly with the native OSX AirPlay support once you have multiple AirPlay devices on your network. Even on a Mac you would have to go through Airfoil for multi-room support, so why not just buy an Airfoil license for your PC instead? ($25)

 

Yes, the Raspberry Pi is basically a very low-power micro-computer - much smaller than even the NUC.

However it's a real "hobbyist" device so I don't know that you would want to try setting one up unless you are quite technically knowledgeable. JRiver seem to be working on getting JRMC to work on the RPi though, so presumably they would sell pre-configured devices similar to the ID (which is just a pre-configured NUC) but at a much lower cost per room.

 

The advantage of the RPi is that it would support high-res audio in each room, unlike the AirPort Express/Apple TV or most other inexpensive networked solutions.

 

 

However, if you are thinking that you would be happy with an Apple TV paired with a $40 DAC, why not just buy an AirPort Express and use its own built-in DAC? (the AirPort Express has a DAC, while the AppleTV does not)

I can't imagine that it is any worse than a $40 DAC. Apple actually seem to do a decent job when it comes to audio on their devices.

 

I'd recommend that you get a trial of Airfoil, buy an AirPort Express, and see what you think of it. If you don't like it, return it to the Apple Store.

 

The Rasberry Pi may be beyond my Propeller Head ranking. I'm just a lowly Private, though it's cheap enough to be a nice fun project later.

 

I read Rockwell's September 2014 review of the APEX from your 2nd post and he thought it was the cat's meow. It should be fine as a DAC for the minor locations.

 

Your suggestion should should meet all my goals with a grand total cost of just $495. I can outfit 3 minor audio systems with 3 Airfoil licenses ($75), 3 Airport Express units ($300), and 3 (Audioquest Forest) RCA cables ($120), and use an iPad 2 with JRemote to access and control our library on a networked PC with JRMC for mid-fi playback on my minor audio systems while the PC could be located next to the main audio system for direct he-res playback. Brilliant.

 

Would this configuration work properly if only one audio system is used at a time?

[Skeptic]

You only need one Airfoil license for the PC, you don't need a license for each receiver.

 

And personally I think that the Audioquest cables are overkill for this project.

I'd probably pick up some Blue Jeans Cable MSA-1 instead, but that's up to you.

Stereo Cables at Blue Jeans Cable

 

There is a remote app for Airfoil which allows you to control which are in use via the iPad.

Depending on your setup, you might just find it easier to always be sending audio to all devices, and simply turn off the speakers/amp if you don't want it playing in that room.

 

 

I'd still suggest just buying one AirPort Express and using a trial of Airfoil to see if that setup works for you first.

[speavler]

can you try out airfoil before buying? i wasn't a big fan of it. fairly unstable on my system and constantly fell out of sync

[Skeptic]

can you try out airfoil before buying? i wasn't a big fan of it. fairly unstable on my system and constantly fell out of sync

If you don't have a license it will let you play 10 minutes of audio at a time, as a trial.

Personally I haven't had any stability issues or sync problems with recent version of the program.

[jriver]

Here is the JRiver Id mentioned above:

Id - JRiverWiki

 

Among other things, it's a DLNA /UPnP Renderer.

 

It's not clear yet that we will be able to use the Raspberry Pi for something similar. There are other ARM devices that should work.

[Gary.D.Olson]

You only need one Airfoil license for the PC, you don't need a license for each receiver.

 

And personally I think that the Audioquest cables are overkill for this project.

I'd probably pick up some Blue Jeans Cable MSA-1 instead, but that's up to you.

Stereo Cables at Blue Jeans Cable

 

There is a remote app for Airfoil which allows you to control which are in use via the iPad.

Depending on your setup, you might just find it easier to always be sending audio to all devices, and simply turn off the speakers/amp if you don't want it playing in that room.

 

 

I'd still suggest just buying one AirPort Express and using a trial of Airfoil to see if that setup works for you first.

 

Great. That brings my cost down to $445 (even less with cheaper RCA's). Do you know if I can use JRemote with this configuration? It was Paul's praise of JRemote on an iPad that lead me down this hole.

[Skeptic]

Yes, you can use JRemote with this.

 

Once you have installed Airfoil, there is an option to "install extras" from the main menu. This installs a virtual sound driver, which plays any audio sent to it through your connected AirPlay receivers.

 

So you can create a Zone in JRiver which plays to that device, and set Airfoil to play "System Audio".

 

In JRemote, you can then select this as the zone you want to send audio to:

 

You can use the Airfoil Speakers Touch app to control which devices that audio is actually sent to.

 

As I mentioned above, it may be easier to simply play music to all of them at once and switch the amp/speakers on/off depending on whether you want to hear music in that room - that way you only have one app to deal with.

[Paul R]

Great. That brings my cost down to $445 (even less with cheaper RCA's). Do you know if I can use JRemote with this configuration? It was Paul's praise of JRemote on an iPad that lead me down this hole.

 

(grin) Yep.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Yes, you can use JRemote with this.

 

Once you have installed Airfoil, there is an option to "install extras" from the main menu. This installs a virtual sound driver, which plays any audio sent to it through your connected AirPlay receivers.

 

So you can create a Zone in JRiver which plays to that device, and set Airfoil to play "System Audio".

 

In JRemote, you can then select this as the zone you want to send audio to:

 

You can use the Airfoil Speakers Touch app to control which devices that audio is actually sent to.

 

As I mentioned above, it may be easier to simply play music to all of them at once and switch the amp/speakers on/off depending on whether you want to hear music in that room - that way you only have one app to deal with.

 

 

Thank you so much for all the help in designing this system. It's perfect for us:) This, to me, is exactly what should attract people to CA. I'll take your advice and configure it to permanently send music to all stations.

 

We'll start putting it together soon after the Holidays and I'll jump back to this thread with an update.

 

 

(grin) Yep.

 

 

Paul,

 

Many thanks to you too sir. I haven't used my audio system because it's too much hassle and very much lacking in the ZEN department. With any luck, your iPad suggestion gave us the missing peice that will bring it all together.

 

To all who pitched in 2 cents or more...

 

 

Wishing you and your loved ones a Very Happy Holiday and Happy & Prosperous New Year!

 

 

Gary

[Gary.D.Olson]

Yes, you can use JRemote with this.

 

Once you have installed Airfoil, there is an option to "install extras" from the main menu. This installs a virtual sound driver, which plays any audio sent to it through your connected AirPlay receivers.

 

So you can create a Zone in JRiver which plays to that device, and set Airfoil to play "System Audio".

 

In JRemote, you can then select this as the zone you want to send audio to:

 

You can use the Airfoil Speakers Touch app to control which devices that audio is actually sent to.

 

As I mentioned above, it may be easier to simply play music to all of them at once and switch the amp/speakers on/off depending on whether you want to hear music in that room - that way you only have one app to deal with.

 

It occurred to me my wife often likes to watch TV on an old 35" JVC from the 1990's in the retreat in our master bedroom. She uses a portable USB 1Tb drive and a WD media player to watch video on this TV, but it's a very clunky solution and there's always a video she wants to watch that isn't on her USB drive.

 

I could use an AppleTV to stream video playback from our HTPC to that location, and she should be able to control it with the iPad & JRemote. We usually use XBMC on the HTPC (OS: Win7 64bit Home Premium), and perhaps that has a remote option for the iPad, but if not, JRMC can be used. Either way, she would have access to all our videos AND music in the retreat.

 

This whole solution of your'n is looking better and better.

[Paul R]

It occurred to me my wife often likes to watch TV on an old 35" JVC from the 1990's in the retreat in our master bedroom. She uses a portable USB 1Tb drive and a WD media player to watch video on this TV, but it's a very clunky solution and there's always a video she wants to watch that isn't on her USB drive.

 

I could use an AppleTV to stream video playback from our HTPC to that location, and she should be able to control it with the iPad & JRemote. We usually use XBMC on the HTPC (OS: Win7 64bit Home Premium), and perhaps that has a remote option for the iPad, but if not, JRMC can be used. Either way, she would have access to all our videos AND music in the retreat.

 

This whole solution of your'n is looking better and better.

 

I don't know if it helps, but the Apple TV all by itself will access Netflix, Hulu, PBS, iTunes, YouTube, Vimeo, Crackle, MLB, Fox, ABC, and others, as well as any videos stored in iTunes on your host computer. All that just using the remote control. The only things we love that it won't access are Acorn TV and Amazon Prime, but in the bedroom, this isn't a problem for us. We can access those services off the iPads and throw the video up on the TV from the iPad. (grin)

 

We actually don't bother to RIP DVDs any longer, because there are so many new things to watch on the TV. Admittedly, NetFlix and Hulu+ are subscription based services, and iTunes is a purchase or rental based service, but hey... it works great for us. In fact, we cut Cable TV and that more than pays for Netflix and Hulu.

 

I forget wha radio stations are on there, but you can also access several music services directly, and of course, you can stream internet radio from JRMC.

 

There are so many options that it can make your head swim.

 

 

-Paul

 

Caveat - Apple TV only outputs video through a HDMI connection. A 1990's TV will probably not have HDMI. Fortunately, you can add in a nice new 39" flatscreen for less than $200 these days.

[Gary.D.Olson]

In fact, we cut Cable TV and that more than pays for Netflix and Hulu.

 

 

Wife could never do without "Dancing With The Stars" or "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills":) Me? With Netflix, I almost never watch standard TV anymore. Love it. A friend told me about a great show I'd never heard of called "Breaking Bad" (fabulous, btw). I watched the first episode and two weeks later saw the last. Same with "Scandal" and Netflix' own series "House of Cards" which is an oustanding production. No commercials too. We just finished the previous seasons of "Hotel Impossible" and are taking a break from too much TV.

 

Have a good evening.

 

 

Gary

[Superdad]

Gary: I am not sure why nobody here has mentioned that the DAC in the most recent Airport Express units (the flat white ones that look most similar to the AppleTV) is actually quite decent. (It is the T.I. PCM5102, which has a very interesting and pleasant sounding output stage built into the DAC chip.)

 

So while I admit I only skimmed over your exact requirements, I did see that the rest of your system is modest, and that you just want something which ail work seamlessly and easily in multiple rooms. So why not just buy a mix of Airport Express and AppleTV units? (For the AppleTV, you will need a Toslink connected DAC and/or a TV with HDMI as the ATV does not have a built-in DAC.)

 

Other than the hi-res limitation, Airplay works fantastically. Audio and video can be slung to your system from anywhere and to/from just about any device. It is fun to have a guest come over, start to show us some photos or video or music, and just reach over to their device to tap the Airplay icon for the media to play on our big TV (okay, you need to first log them on to your wifi network).

[Gary.D.Olson]

Gary: I am not sure why nobody here has mentioned that the DAC in the most recent Airport Express units (the flat white ones that look most similar to the AppleTV) is actually quite decent. (It is the T.I. PCM5102, which has a very interesting and pleasant sounding output stage built into the DAC chip.)

 

So while I admit I only skimmed over your exact requirements, I did see that the rest of your system is modest, and that you just want something which ail work seamlessly and easily in multiple rooms. So why not just buy a mix of Airport Express and AppleTV units? (For the AppleTV, you will need a Toslink connected DAC and/or a TV with HDMI as the ATV does not have a built-in DAC.)

 

Other than the hi-res limitation, Airplay works fantastically. Audio and video can be slung to your system from anywhere and to/from just about any device. It is fun to have a guest come over, start to show us some photos or video or music, and just reach over to their device to tap the Airplay icon for the media to play on our big TV (okay, you need to first log them on to your wifi network).

 

 

That's pretty much what Sceptic came up with, which solved it earlier today. Here's the final design:

 

Main Audio System

The networked PC is located next to it for direct connection via external DAC - no issue.

 

Minor Audio Systems Using Airport Express

Each mini-system will be directly connected via RCA to an AirPort Express. Its internal DAC will convert the bits. Airfoil will command the Airport Express units, and an iPad with "JRemote" will control JRiver Media Center. Music will be streamed to all minor locations simultaneously and at all times, and I'll simply power up whichever system I wish to listen to. I never have more than one system on.

 

 

Here are those minor systems:

 

Drum Practice Studio

Yamaha C70 preamp

Yamaha M70 power amp (200 wpc)

JBL floor stander's (bought in the 1980's)

F-Series Velodyne 12" powered sub (model# SF12BVX10)

Bedroom

Marantz 2330B vintage receiver (130 wpc)

Infinity Reference 325

Pork Audio 10" powered sub

Audio Technica ATHM50RD cans

 

Media Room

Onkyo HT-RC270 AV networked receiver

Canton Karat 920C (front)

Canton Karat AV 950 (center)

Klipsch RS3 11 (rear)

F-Series Velodyne 12" powered sub (model# SF12BVX10) yep, that makes two

 

Woodshop

Akai AA-1135 vintage receiver (35 wpc)

JBL L20T

Gary

 

 

[Superdad]

That's pretty much what Sceptic came up with, which solved it earlier today. Here's the final design.

 

Glad you got the plan all sorted out. Enjoy!!

 

(Not quite sure why you are using Airfoil and JRiver in your configuration. I find AirPlay and either Homesharing with the Apple Music app or Apple's Remote app to work fine. But my needs are perhaps simpler.)

[speavler]

Glad you got the plan all sorted out. Enjoy!!

 

(Not quite sure why you are using Airfoil and JRiver in your configuration. I find AirPlay and either Homesharing with the Apple Music app or Apple's Remote app to work fine. But my needs are perhaps simpler.)

Agreed. I recommend converting your flac to alac

[Skeptic]

iTunes is very limited compared to what JRiver can do, and performance is dire once you have a large library.

It does simplify the AirPlay process, however.

 

Personally, I don't think there are any remote apps even remotely comparable to JRemote - especially if you have a large/complex library and want to use custom views.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Making good Progress.

 

I met with a guy this morning selling an iPad Air with 3 months of use (he just received an iPad Air 2 as a gift). It was in pristine condition, as was the box, charger, cable, and smart cover; all included for a very fair price. The cash I'd received at Christmas was enough to pay for all but $25:) I handed him the gift cash, and just as I'd begun mining my wallet for the final $25, he says, "That's enough for me." He told me to feel free to contact him via email or phone if I ever needed help with the iPad and added, "or just drop by the Apple Store down the street where I work." Could that have gone better?

 

I then drove to BestBuy to pickup one Airport Express and mini-plug-to-RCA cable. Sure, the store would be freakishly busy 2 days after Christmas. Sure, I suffer from sever claustrophobia, and crowds make it worse than anything else. The parking lot was full, but the closest space to the store emptied right as I got to it. Better; the Airport Express and mini-plug were both in stock. Continuing the good fortune, there were no lines at the cash registers and I was miraculously in & out of there within 5 minutes. Ahhhh.

 

I already have JRemote setup and controlling JRMC on the netBook. Tomorrow, I'll install Airfoil and attempt to get Airport Express configured to stream music to a secondary audio system.

 

Even if tomorrow isn't as successful as today, we're off to a very good start.

 

 

Gary

[Paul R]

Great good fortune Gary! Now, plug a set of headphones into the iPad,'set the zone on JRemote to "this device" and

see what the music sounds like strwaming just to the iPad.

[Skeptic]

If it's any help:

 

1. Be sure to use the "install extras" option in Airfoil to install their System Audio driver:

 

If you want to use Airfoil as a zone in JRiver, you need to use "System Audio" rather than the "JRiver" option from the audio source selection in Airfoil.

 

2. I forget the default name (I think it was just "System Audio Driver") but I renamed it and gave it a custom icon in the Windows Sounds Control Panel which made it easier to identify the Airfoil device:

 

Now I must warn you - when you enable streaming to an AirPlay receiver - which I have configured to happen as soon as Airfoil starts - it changes your default sound device to their driver.

 

You may or may not want this. I warn you about it, because if you then open up a YouTube link on the PC for example, it will capture that audio too - and likely play it back at 100% volume.

 

I have contacted Rogue Amoeba (the developers) about this but they don't see a need for an option to disable this behavior. I really wish they'd reconsider it...

 

So what I do is launch Airfoil, enable streaming to one of my receivers, which sets their audio device as the default, and then switch the default device back to my TV. (what I actually want to receive system audio)

I use AudioSwitch for this, since it's a simple app that sits in the system tray.

 

3. In JRiver, I created a new zone configured to play to the Airfoil device:

 

This lets me select the Airfoil zone in JRemote and play audio to it exclusively.

 

I recommend using the Internal Volume control in JRiver, and enabling Volume Protection which prevents audio playing back at 100% volume by default, and limits the rate of volume increase.

 

Depending on what you have the AirPlay receiver connected to, you might actually want it outputting 100% volume.

In my setup I use JRemote for volume control, so playing back at 100% by mistake would be very loud.

 

Unfortunately there is currently a bug in JRiver so that the startup volume setting is being ignored, and it always starts at 20% rather than 50% as I have set here.

[Gary.D.Olson]

Great good fortune Gary! Now, plug a set of headphones into the iPad,'set the zone on JRemote to "this device" and

see what the music sounds like strwaming just to the iPad.

 

 

Okay, I tried it. This little iPad sounds really good with headphones.

[Gary.D.Olson]

For the purpose of aesthetics, I've decided to leave the Dell PC next to the modem & wireless router. I'll still use it as the music server as planned, but the netBook and Schiit DAC will be used to feed the stream to our main audio system. It's easier to hide & as quite as a mouse.

 

The plan for the day (putting the pressure on) is to get music to stream to my drum practice studio on the far end of the house. I'll move one of our existing ethernet/wireless powerline network adapters there and use it to connect with the new Airport Express. The Airport Express's internal DAC will be utilized to feed the audio system. I'll need to download and configure Airfoil too.

 

It is now 9AM.

[Gary.D.Olson]

It does not. You would have to go through Airfoil, which works, but can be a hassle to set up.

 

You can configure the Airfoil driver as a Zone in JRiver, but have to set which AirPlay devices that actually plays to via the Airfoil app.

 

I am also concerned that JRiver may decide to block access to the Airfoil driver as they have done with JPlay recently. JRiver have repeatedly stated how they don't want to support AirPlay, and it is not properly supported on OSX where AirPlay is built into the OS.

 

 

This and a few other things I've read today about compatibility issues between Airfoil & JRMC has me thinking perhaps I should use iTunes instead, & convert from flak to their non-compressed format. Can anyone tell me what they would REALLY MISS in iTune's remote app compared with JRemote?

[Skeptic]

I haven't had any compatibility issues once it's set up.

I just leave Airfoil running, connected to my receivers, and can control everything via JRemote.

 

iTunes' interface and library management is horrible compared to JRiver+JRemote in my opinion.

[Gary.D.Olson]

I haven't had any compatibility issues once it's set up.

I just leave Airfoil running, connected to my receivers, and can control everything via JRemote.

 

iTunes' interface and library management is horrible compared to JRiver+JRemote in my opinion.

 

 

Skeptic,

 

Shees-a-whorck. Music is streaming from the Dell PC (running JRMC with Airfoil) and through a powerline network to the Airport Express in the drum studio on the other side of the house, while remote controlled by the iPad with JRemote. It sounds very good too.

 

Thanks!!!