dff to dsf conversion in Jriver

[datman]

OK, so I am an idiot.

 

How do you convert .dff DSD files to .dsf DSD files in Jriver? All it seems to want to do is open and play files.

 

Since there is no real help function and I am apparently incompetent I need someone's help to do this.

 

Thanks

[kumakuma]

I'm not sure Jriver can do this. The Mac version only seems to support conversion to MP3/PCM formats.

[jhwalker]

You don't actually have to convert - JRiver MC will play either DFFs of DSFs.

 

If you *want* to convert, you can use one of several free utilities to do so - I've been pretty satisfied with dff2dsf (Mac).

[Stereolab42]

There is apparently no way to do this under Windows? At least for DSD256 (the utility here can do it for 64 and 128, but not 256). There were claims JRiver could do this, but then the JRiver dev chimed in to say that such conversions always take a leisurely detour through PCM.

[bogi]

I know people are using Korg Audiogate for this conversion on Windows.

The last free version, which doesn't require KORG DAC, is 2.3.3. It requires twitter account.

[john57]

OK, so I am an idiot.

 

How do you convert .dff DSD files to .dsf DSD files in Jriver? All it seems to want to do is open and play files.

 

Since there is no real help function and I am apparently incompetent I need someone's help to do this.

 

Thanks

 

J.River can play both with no problem. The difference is that .dsf can hold metadata while .dff can not. However I am still able to tag .dff files in J.River.

[One and a half]

For Jriver Windows.

 

DFF can be tagged but it's not permanent. The tagging only stays with the library not the file. DSF the tagging stays with the file.

 

To answer the OP's question since no one else has so far.

 

Highlight the file(s) you wish to convert.

Right click, Library Tools, Convert audio.

This Action window opens.

Use the Drop down to choose the format you want, and what sample rate.

If you click the .... box, the option window allows that selection, DSD64 or 128.

 

Click the options screen to delete the old files or where to place the new files.

 

 

Finally click convert.

[One and a half]

There is apparently no way to do this under Windows? At least for DSD256 (the utility here can do it for 64 and 128, but not 256). There were claims JRiver could do this, but then the JRiver dev chimed in to say that such conversions always take a leisurely detour through PCM.

 

Indeed, DSD rates higher than 128 do divert to PCM, since the real way to go higher than 128 with DSD is not quite there (yet).

[bogi]

john57: Select a DFF track in a playlist and use Library Tools | Convert context menu.

Click on 'audio' on the bottom left in the case that video formats are listed.

Select DSF format and run the conversion.

[Skeptic]

Don't use JRiver to perform this conversion - it's a lossy process.

[bogi]

Indeed, DSD rates higher than 128 do divert to PCM, since the real way to go higher than 128 with DSD is not quite there (yet).

 

Does it mean any quality degradation for DSD64 and DSD128? I understod it that way that no.

[john57]

Don't use JRiver to perform this conversion - it's a lossy process.

 

I do not have to convert anyway as long I use J.River to store tagging in its library. Most of the DSD files I am interested are now in DSF format. More of moot point nowadays.

[One and a half]

Does it mean any quality degradation for DSD64 and DSD128? I understod it that way that no.

 

If you have the right tools for the job, there won't be any degradation. Converting DFF to DSF via PCM is not using the right tools.

[One and a half]

Hey, the links in the posts to the lossless DFF to DSF conversions tools are missing..

[bogi]

One and a half, you wrote previously: Indeed, DSD rates higher than 128 do divert to PCM.

Therefore I thought the conversion for DSD rates <= 128 could be without any degradation.

Does your latest answer mean that JRiver does all DFF to DSF conversions via PCM, regardless on the DSD rate?

 

Links to which free products did you find missing? This one? HFX Store - DFF to DSF Converter - Light It work only up to DSF128, but hopefully it is not done via PCM.

[Skeptic]

One and a half, you wrote previously: Indeed, DSD rates higher than 128 do divert to PCM.

Therefore I thought the conversion for DSD rates <= 128 could be without any degradation.

Does your latest answer mean that JRiver does all DFF to DSF conversions via PCM, regardless on the DSD rate?

DSD to anything in JRiver converts to PCM at 1/8th the DSD rate.

 

The only exception is bitstreaming native DSD or DoP.

[wisnon]

DSD to anything in JRiver converts to PCM at 1/8th the DSD rate.

 

The only exception is bitstreaming native DSD or DoP.

 

So upsampling DSD64 to higher rates is a waste of time in JRiver?

[Skeptic]

So upsampling DSD64 to higher rates is a waste of time in JRiver?

Well it is converted to PCM and then upsampled to 2xDSD.

You can't go from DSD to DSD without filtering out the noise first.

[One and a half]

Does your latest answer mean that JRiver does all DFF to DSF conversions via PCM, regardless on the DSD rate?

 

Skeptic wrapped it up in a nutshell. You can convert DSD64 Bitstream to DSD128 on the fly, this is performed by quite a few SACD players and DACs already. But if you perform any editing like format changing, DFF to DSF, there's the PCM conversion in place.

[One and a half]

 

Links to which free products did you find missing? This one? HFX Store - DFF to DSF Converter - Light It work only up to DSF128, but hopefully it is not done via PCM.

 

Thanks for this, they quote the conversion does not provide any loss. I wonder how DFF and DSF files are produced at Blue Coast Records, since they offer both for a few of their titles. Acoustic Sounds only offer DSF, Channel Classics mainly DFF, the ones I bought anyway.

[wisnon]

Well it is converted to PCM and then upsampled to 2xDSD.

You can't go from DSD to DSD without filtering out the noise first.

 

This does not apply when playing back on the fly though...

[Skeptic]

This does not apply when playing back on the fly though...

It does. There must be a PCM conversion stage because the noise inherent to DSD needs to be filtered out - and there's no way to do that without conversion to PCM.

 

It has to be done in the player, because the DAC sees that it is getting a "2xDSD" or "4xDSD" input, which means that it would use ~100kHz or ~200kHz filters, rather than the ~50kHz filter required for a 1xDSD signal.

 

Thanks for this, they quote the conversion does not provide any loss. I wonder how DFF and DSF files are produced at Blue Coast Records, since they offer both for a few of their titles. Acoustic Sounds only offer DSF, Channel Classics mainly DFF, the ones I bought anyway.

If the conversion happens in <30s then it is almost certainly a lossless conversion, simply moving the DSD audio from a DFF container to a DSF one.

 

However, taking longer than that, or showing significant CPU usage is not necessarily an indicator that the conversion is lossy, since the source DFF tracks may be DST compressed and that is quite demanding to decode.

Removing DST compression also means that your tracks will end up being twice the size they originally were.

And remember that while some converters will convert multichannel DFF to DSF, the format is only meant to contain stereo audio. Software players may be fine with that, but hardware players may not.

 

The conversion just isn't worth the trouble in my opinion. If you want external metadata, save it to a cue sheet or something rather than converting the tracks. Or keep it in the player's database.

[bogi]

Skeptic wrapped it up in a nutshell. You can convert DSD64 Bitstream to DSD128 on the fly, this is performed by quite a few SACD players and DACs already. But if you perform any editing like format changing, DFF to DSF, there's the PCM conversion in place.

 

Thanks. But I didn't mean upsampling. I meant only DFF to DSF format conversion without any upsampling. Skeptic wrote: "lossless conversion, simply moving the DSD audio from a DFF container to a DSF one". Is this simple conversion really performed in JRiver via PCM?

[Skeptic]

Thanks. But I didn't mean upsampling. I meant only DFF to DSF format conversion without any upsampling. Skeptic wrote: "lossless conversion, simply moving the DSD audio from a DFF container to a DSF one". Is this simple conversion really performed in JRiver via PCM?

The conversion options in JRiver are meant to convert PCM to DSD.

Not to move from one DSD container format to another. (DFF to DSF or vice-versa)

 

It may not be as simple as it sounds to move between the DSD formats without conversion. You'd have to ask someone at JRiver I guess.

 

There are certainly tools which seem capable of doing it, but I don't know whether they are totally error-free. DSD is difficult to work with, and other tools, such as the PS3 extraction utility have difficulty converting DFF to DSF which can result in pops and clicks at the start of tracks.

It's best not to convert unless it is absolutely required - and storing metadata in the file is not worth that trouble, in my opinion.

[wisnon]

It does. There must be a PCM conversion stage because the noise inherent to DSD needs to be filtered out - and there's no way to do that without conversion to PCM.

 

It has to be done in the player, because the DAC sees that it is getting a "2xDSD" or "4xDSD" input, which means that it would use ~100kHz or ~200kHz filters, rather than the ~50kHz filter required for a 1xDSD signal.

 

If the conversion happens in <30s then it is almost certainly a lossless conversion, simply moving the DSD audio from a DFF container to a DSF one.

 

However, taking longer than that, or showing significant CPU usage is not necessarily an indicator that the conversion is lossy, since the source DFF tracks may be DST compressed and that is quite demanding to decode.

Removing DST compression also means that your tracks will end up being twice the size they originally were.

And remember that while some converters will convert multichannel DFF to DSF, the format is only meant to contain stereo audio. Software players may be fine with that, but hardware players may not.

 

The conversion just isn't worth the trouble in my opinion. If you want external metadata, save it to a cue sheet or something rather than converting the tracks. Or keep it in the player's database.

 

I dont think HQ Player has any PCM conversion when upsampling DSD. I recall Misjka saying so..

 

What do you mean by PCM, multi-bit SDM or DSD-Wide?