HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[Jud]

The issue of HQP not detecting a BBB NAA after stopping playback has hit me today a total of 4 times. Not sure why I did not encounter this previously, but it's now very repeatable.

 

With this, I'll likely keep using my Pi2 or Pi3 as NAA along with my favorite: microRendu, and leave my BBB to be something other than NAA.

 

I experienced this with BBxM. Perhaps there's something about the Beagle hardware or the Debian installation on them that causes it.

 

Miska had asked me a while back for the NAA info from Linux and the HQPlayer log so he could look into this, but I went on vacation and since I came back I've been using the Cubox that doesn't have the problem.

[Jud]

By the way, I had wanted to mention:

 

I had been able to run HQPlayer on my desktop to upsample to DSD256, though with occasional stuttering. At some point during the betas DSD256 became impossible (constant stuttering), but I was able to play DSD128 with occasional stuttering. Then a couple of weeks ago (around betas 7 and 8), the ability to play DSD256 came back.

 

I wanted to see what was causing the stuttering, so I connected my main system DAC to the desktop and got the same result as with the NAA, so it wasn't the network.

 

I then remembered "de-overclocking" my desktop a year or so ago to try to get the best sound from the desktop system. Of course with an NAA this isn't a consideration. So I re-overclocked the 2009 vintage i7-950 CPU (from 3.07 to 3.7GHz), and now I'm able to upsample to DSD 256 and listen to music with almost no stuttering - two occasions in over an hour of listening last night. (I imagine this may be caused by something the OS is automatically running from time to time - perhaps I'll get around to looking into it.) The music is sounding very nice indeed.

 

So if you have gone the fairly popular route of making sure your system is very quiet, remember this is not quite such a consideration when an NAA is used. Consider the possibility of maximizing your CPU speed for best capability of running HQPlayer.

[Jud]

I can't find HQPlayer's log file.

Ricardo

 

You likely know this, but just in case: HQPlayer doesn't ordinarily do log files; you have to enable this in the preferences.

[Jud]

Just to reiterate/ convey CuBox experience, the CuBox does not like "fast" networks and thus does not work as an NAA in mine and others experience.

 

E.g If running 1gb or fiber it studders and is pretty much unusable (mine is collecting dust). Only if you introduce a dumb 100mb switch before the NAA does it work. Again my experience. Chris brought this to light awhile back and I have verified it as well.

 

If there is a fix/workaround (without using another switch) I would be very interested in that info

 

One could throttle the speed if using a managed switch, but if using fiber with the Tplink converters they only run at 1gb and therefore would have to purchase / replace something that auto negotiates 100/1000.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

With my home network, spec'd as GB Ethernet (copper), CuBoxTV (the most economical way I found to buy a quad-core CuBox-i) works absolutely perfectly as an NAA. For several months it has worked exactly as the desktop installation of HQPlayer it is streaming from.

 

I am not necessarily saying this for bogi's benefit, since it doesn't meet some of his other criteria, but for anyone else who wants a simple and easy way to do NAA, this is great. It is completely trouble-free compared to the two BeagleBone boards I tried. Of course I am sure this is all quite system dependent; I don't have optical Ethernet installed, for example. I've also got a home mesh network with three eero routers, so there may be something to that.

[Jud]

Jussi,

 

I know we have discussed this in the past, but I thought I would share some recent experiences with a Roon (1.2) > HQplayer (3.15.0) > Microrendu (2.3; HQplayer 3.4.2) > IFI micro iDSD Black Label set up. As many have experienced the IFI issues a loud thump with certain versions of linux including the one used in the Sonic Orbiter and the Microrendu when using the HQplayer NAA (Jesus R assures me that it only does this with the HQplayer NAA).

 

Recently I have started upsampling to DSD512 (and I'm never going back). I get fantastic results with the ASIO driver going directly (or actually through an Adnaco fiber to usb converter) to the IFI. PCM and DSD all play great without a thump to the IFI...best sound of my life. Likewise, when I go to the microrendu to the IFI PCM upsamples fine to DSD512 without a thump, DSD direct also works fine without a thump, but when I upsample DSD64, 128 or 256 to DSD512 I get the thump. I wish the DSD512 didn't sound so good...but it does.

 

Any ideas what might be going on? I wish I could use the microrendu without fearing for my speaker's health! My daughter thought it was a gun shot going off tonight and dropped to the floor (11 year old dramatics).

 

Robert

 

Your research is much appreciated - I haven't upsampled DSD (my old computer would likely not be up to it anyway) and so have never experienced a huge "thump." I have heard much lower level "bumps," but never when first starting HQP and letting it play, only when stopping after a song and selecting another by clicking on it in the track list.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Jud]

I am too lazy to be honest to search and my question can be dumb, but may I ask if there is a way to run NAA under Daphile?

 

Just spent few minutes to find it out and did not find any simple way yet.

 

Daphile is running on an Xtreamer Winbox micro PC, sounds nice with an RME ADI 2 Pro USB A/D, D/A interface, wondering if I can use NAA with Daphile?

 

Thx for any help.

 

 

Do you have HQPlayer running on Daphile or do you want your Daphile computer to be an NAA?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Jud]

I would say keep your Daphile, buy a CuBox for $100 or less and install Miska's NAA image on it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Jud]

Actually I did this and now NAA runs on Cubox. It sounds nice, really engaging. However, I can use it only with the native files, without any processing. When I try to do an upconversion I hear a strange whistling in every 15-20 sec for about 2-3 sec. Higher the upconversion goes more offen and louder the whistling attacks in PCM. It is even worse in DSD.

 

My Hqplayer runs on a MacBook Pro, the USB DAC is the RME ADI 2 Pro.

 

Any suggestion?

 

I wish I knew what was going on, but I have never experienced this.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Jud]

At least my unit tends to increase in voltage as it warms up before reaching equilibrium, so when setting the trimpot I back it off.

[Jud]

I've been attempting an install of Archlinux Arm on my Cubox, and have run into the following problems after doing the normal rootfs installation on an SD card preparatory to setting up :

 

- No HDMI monitor output (what I have available), so I can't see what's going on directly

 

- No Ethernet, so I can't SSH in

 

Would appreciate suggestions regarding any or all of the following:

 

- I currently have Armbian in its Xenial configuration running on the Cubox, so are there handy dandy install instructions for Archlinux Arm from an operating system?

 

- What are the files I need to edit in the rootfs install on the SD card to get working Ethernet so I can SSH in?

 

- Is there a reasonably inexpensive small computer on which installing Arch Linux (and then NAA) is a little easier than on the Cubox?

[Jud]

37 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

CuBox has microUSB serial console, with the typical FTDI chip, so it works easily (at least on Linux).

 

Debian 9 has support for CuBox-i, so it is pretty straightforward to install and use. Of course there are also the NAA images I build for it...

 

 

Yep, I see the microUSB port.  Good.  (I imagine I could also put the SD card in a USB adapter, mount it to a directory and chroot.)

 

The documentation that I've seen for installation of Debian 9 armhf just doesn't do it for me (all sorts of stuff about CDs, DVDs, and Blu-Ray disks!).  The reason I like the idea of Arch is that someone has gone to the trouble of properly configuring networkaudiod and other software I want to install, so my rudimentary Linux knowledge won't be tested too much.  (It's because there's other software I'd like to install that I'm not using the image, which installs as easily as possible and works beautifully.)

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Let this be a learning experience for you!

 

Really easy to copy @Miska's debian image to an SD, plop it in and go.

 

Let's see, from OS X I use "unetbootin" (I also use "Etcher") to write the SD from a downloadable image.

You can use the USB terminal to get Ethernet working. Then enable ssh.

You can then install additional software from the command line...

 

or do same with archlinux ...

 

you can always keep one SD for archlinux and another for Debian. Put an "A" on one and then a "D" on the other and tell us which sounds better

 

 

Archlinux doesn't seem to use images as such (which is fine).  Also no problem with images - on OS X for images I like a tool called "Pi Filler."  But I have a Linux desktop to work from also.  Here's the installation procedure I'm following (now that it's easy to get to a login on the newly booted installation, hopefully I'll be good to go): https://archlinuxarm.org/platforms/armv7/freescale/cubox-i

[Jud]

10 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Yeah that looks more difficult  There are also ways you can install Debian on an SD using the command line and "dd" but those apps I quoted are easier with nice GUI

For desktops typically make an installation USB these days ... CD/DVD is becoming archaic... mostly emulated using VirtualBox etc.. 

 

 

As with many things *nix and *nux, it may look more difficult than GUI tools, but it winds up being just about completely reliable, controllable to a much finer extent than virtually any GUI tool, and I find myself learning more this way.

 

Thanks to you and Miska - got the serial login going last night, though I had to get to bed before I could do next steps: (1) ensure the text file that passes parameters to the boot script already has the necessary parameters for the serial console or edit it to contain them, so I don’t have to interrupt boot each time to be sure they’re entered; (2) ensure eth0 is up, or bring it up; (3) upgrade system with pacman; install software of choice with pacman, including networkaudiod, then make sure it’s configured and running correctly.

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

 

No such things needed, it has image in two parts, the common hardware agnostic armhf part, and then the hardware specific part. You concatenate the two and dump it to the microSD. When you boot it up, installer is launched and run entirely from RAM, so you can make fresh install on the very same microSD.

 

http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/main/installer-armhf/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/

http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/main/installer-armhf/current/images/hd-media/SD-card-images/

 

Installation manual:

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/armhf/index

 

 

@Miska, I know you don’t have time (or likely the desire), but I wish you were writing the Debian documentation.   If the install docs had had an introductory paragraph giving the simple overview you just did, I may well have gone ahead with Stretch.

[Jud]

Just now, lmitche said:

Archlinux is also very well documented.

 

Debian certainly is too.  It’s just that either the writing style is lost on me, or there’s too much information for me as someone who doesn’t want to take the time to be immersed in the world of Linux/Debian.  I just want to dive in, learn enough to accomplish a specific short term goal, and be done.  The people who wrote the documentation can’t be blamed for not catering to folks like me.  But of course that doesn’t help me.

[Jud]

On 7/26/2017 at 2:51 AM, Miska said:

 

No such things needed, it has image in two parts, the common hardware agnostic armhf part, and then the hardware specific part. You concatenate the two and dump it to the microSD. When you boot it up, installer is launched and run entirely from RAM, so you can make fresh install on the very same microSD.

 

http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/main/installer-armhf/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/

http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/main/installer-armhf/current/images/hd-media/SD-card-images/

 

Installation manual:

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/armhf/index

 

 

So I got myself a fine, working, updated Archlinux Arm install.  Then I tried using pacman, but it didn't come up with hqplayer-network-audio-daemon (the Archlinux package) in its database.  Hmm.  Searched the Archlinux Arm package databases online - nope.  By this time I was pretty much suspecting....  So I downloaded the package from the regular Archlinux online database, and worked with that package to build one for Archlinux Arm according to the documentation.  Ran pacman on the newly built package, and unfortunately, what I'd thought: "This package will not install/work on Armv7," or words to that effect.  Now I've read about other users installing networkaudiod on Archlinux Arm and it works, but the reason for doing Archlinux in the first place was to have something configured to work out of the box.  I tried to install the other software I wanted (upmpdcli) using Pacman, and exactly the same result.  So it looks like I'll be wanting to use Debian or some variant after all.

 

My choices there are Miska's Cubox image or installing Stretch and Miska's networkaudiod package for it.  I'll try the image first, since it's nicely configured, but I'm wondering (1) if I'll be able to use a default user and password to login on the image, or set them up; and (2) assuming I can install upmpdcli on the image, if I can set up both networkaudiod and upmpdcli to be available on boot.  Guess I'll find out.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, Jud said:

My choices there are Miska's Cubox image or installing Stretch and Miska's networkaudiod package for it.  I'll try the image first, since it's nicely configured, but I'm wondering (1) if I'll be able to use a default user and password to login on the image, or set them up; and (2) assuming I can install upmpdcli on the image, if I can set up both networkaudiod and upmpdcli to be available on boot.  Guess I'll find out.

 

Ha!  OK, this is why I couldn't do anything with Debian Jessie installs (that I was thinking of upgrading to Stretch) previously: no driver for my MS Natural ergonomic keyboard in the NAA image or the Stretch image.  So the NAA image just sits there at login and I can't type anything; the Stretch image apparently doesn't have the console arguments needed, because after autoboot the screen blanks.  The way you're supposed to stop autoboot to enter the console arguments is by (ahem) hitting any key on the keyboard.  And of course I can't do that because it doesn't recognize I'm hitting keys.

 

So yeah, I could keep trying to work my way through this and probably learn a lot.  But I think I will take the lazy way out and just go back to letting the NAA image work for the time being on the Cubox, and meanwhile look at something a little friendlier for an NAA and upmpdcli install.

 

@Miska, @jabbr, anyone else: Thoughts on the ECS Liva or Gigabyte Brix?

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883105007&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Desktop+PC-_-N82E16883105007&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnubLBRC_ARIsAASsNNntbFj7XwXlEaD43giCsTNyLfsI3K4aM-6g_PnHK3kYgaGIdB21CnoaAsUrEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/812172/Gigabyte-BRIX-GB-BXBT-1900-Desktop/?cm_mmc=PLA-_-Google-_-Desktop_Computers-_-812172-VQ6-51194794196-VQ16-c-VQ17-pla-VQ18-online-VQ19-812172-VQ20-101646044276-VQ21--VQ22-624116863-VQ27-10575869396&adpos=1o2&creative=51194794196&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnubLBRC_ARIsAASsNNm7sglQRiTF3WuacfVcbLPFB3TkzyMnTKNrCCbwRr30zTs-swe2DlEaAnu0EALw_wcB

[Jud]

11 hours ago, jabbr said:

@Jud don't give up on cubox! ... unless you want the ClearFog -- its really terrific  

 

Just use your laptop and minicom (or whatever) and don't get too complicated. This worked for me : http://blog.jabresearch.com/post/2017/06/04/CLEARFOG-BASE-AS-FIBEROPTIC-NETWORK-AUDIO-ADAPTER-(NAA)

 

For cubox -- use @Miska's image   and then dd to copy it to an SD or Etcher or whatever ... 

 

 

 

 

Hey @jabbr 

 

Will give Armbian another try.  Here's hoping my keyboard is still recognized (and everything else still works) after the upgrade to Stretch/Armbian.

 

Getting images onto the SD card is no problem at all.  I have multiple ways to do it on two different computers, all of which work.  My problems begin after the system boots: With Debian (not Armbian), including Miska's image, various Jessie images, and the Stretch image I used last night, my keyboard isn't recognized; with Archlinux Arm, the software I want to install isn't available via the pacman packaging system for the armv7hf architecture.

 

If Armbian still recognizes my keyboard after upgrading to Stretch, I'll install networkaudiod and then see about installing upmpdcli.

[Jud]

On 7/28/2017 at 11:44 AM, jabbr said:

Forget the keyboard -- it doesn't ever need one! Just boot using minicom over USB, get network & ssh up and then access using ssh over network...

 

Well, the keyboard worked, so I'm OK there.  Installed networkaudiod, in the midst of installing upmpdcli from source, since there's no package for this architecture (that I know of at the moment, anyway).

 

For possible future reference, when you mention "boot using minicom over usb," I don't know what that means.  I have minicom installed on my desktop and CoolTerm on the MBP, so I have software capable of working with a serial connection.  What happens from there?

[Jud]

OK, everything installed.  HQPlayer doesn't see the NAA/DAC, and here's the message I see repeated several times in response to a systemctl status inquiry:

 

Quote

Jul 30 23:53:39 cubox networkaudiod[1566]: [/usr/sbin/networkaudiod] (1566): clSocket::SetOption(): setsockopt(): No buffer space available

 

So what's the error in setup/configuration I need to rectify, @Miska (or someone else who knows)?  Thanks...

[Jud]

12 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I've seen this reported when the binary is used on some other system than it was built for. I have not seen it happen on Debian Stretch with it's original kernel.

 

It could be either incompatibility with libc version, or kernel configuration issue. You could see and compare sysctl's with net.*mem* and see if there are any differences in limits.

 

 

Thanks Miska.  I’m supposing something in Armbian for CuBox has done one of these things, since (1) I didn’t do any configuration on my own in those areas, and (2) searching the thread showed another user with exactly the same problem back in April-March.  That user tried Archlinux Arm and it Just Worked, so perhaps....

[Jud]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

You probably want to update Armbian to stretch though as networkaudiod needs that...

 

I did.  I don't recall whether the other user did, but I did and still got the precise error message he did.  So it's something in the Armbian tweaks that persists across the upgrade.

[Jud]

After a long journey through Cubox-land (and many thanks to @arglebargle for helpful hints and encouragement), I grew impatient with my lack of sufficient Linux-fu to get it to do what I wanted (be an NAA and run upmpdcli as well).  So I decided to get a little box that wouldn't require me to work within the ARM architecture (wouldn't box me in, so to speak  ).  I was able to get hold of a mini PC with an i5 CPU (detuned - good, because the box is silent), 4GB of DDR3 1600, and a 64GB mSATA SSD for a total cost of $230:

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856110131&cm_re=Asus_VivoMini-_-56-110-131-_-Product

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231725

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/64GB-mSATA-SSD-Samsung-MZMPC064HBDR-000L1-MZ-MPC0640-0L1-Solid-State-Hard-Drive-/112497117549

 

After some false starts with another Linux, I decided to just go with Ubuntu Xenial Server.  After installing the dependencies (libasound2 and build-essentials are the package names in Ubuntu; you need ALSA as well, package name alsa-base), I downloaded and installed the latest Xenial deb for network audio daemon.  It Just Works, yay!  And upmpdcli the same - Just Works!

 

I've been too busy to actually play any music yet (  ), but the DAC is seen by HQPlayer through the NAA, so looking good.

[Jud]

5 hours ago, semente said:

That's great news, thanks.

At the moment I only have the R-Pi available but I'm planning on getting a Cubox. I'll give it a try.

 

I have a spare CuBox sitting around that you’re welcome to for the cost of shipping, though I imagine the UpBoard can’t be too costly.  PM me if interested.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, semente said:

Hi Jud, did you get my message? Thanks, Ricardo

 

I did, and my apologies for not responding.  We were hosting a reunion of old friends.  I’ll be back to you this evening or tomorrow.