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    At Long Last! Listen To Your (Physical) SACDs Through an Outboard DAC

     

    At Long Last! Listen To Your SACDs Through an Outboard DAC
    George Graves

     

     

    When Sony/Phillips Announced their new Super Audio CD format (SACD) in 1999/2000, Sony opened a marketing office in NYC to advertise and promote the new format. They reached out to a number of  audio writers (including, yours truly) with the “gift” of a new Sony SCD-777ES player (listing for $3500) and a “subscription” to all SACD releases as they came out – regardless of label! As a result of that, and the many SACDs that I received from companies such as Telarc and Reference Recordings, etc, after Sony shut that office down (not to mention the ones that I bought myself), I have hundreds of SACDs!

     

    For years, I used my SCD-777ES player to play them and enjoyed what I thought was great SACD playback. After all, the Sony turned out to be, at the time, the best regular CD player that I had heard. Why wouldn’t the SACD portion of the player be just as exemplary? Then, about five years ago, the 777 stopped being able to play SACDs. It still played regular CDs but it wouldn’t even “recognize” the SACD layer in the dual layer discs and the early Sony SACDs, which were single layer (and culled mostly from the Columbia Records catalogue) wouldn’t play at all. I was devastated. I had recently bought a really cheap Sony BDP-BX37 Blu-Ray player on E-Bay and when I subsequently discovered that it would also play SACDs, I was ecstatic! Sadly the euphoria didn’t last long as this Blu-Ray player’s SACD playback was terrible and certainly not satisfying to anyone who was used to the SCD-777ES.

     

    In the meantime I had taken the 777 ES to the Sony warranty repair shop in my area, and was told that the problem was that the laser LED for the SACD portion of the player had failed and there were no more spares (an old story with Sony) as they made only a certain number of spare laser assemblies and this turned out to be a weak spot in the player’s design. In other words, almost all of the 777s either had failed or will fail in this manner! So the player could not be fixed (anyone interested in buying that brick from me?).

     

    The Blu-Ray player sounded so mediocre playing SACDs, that I essentially stopped listening to them. My SACD copies of Miles Davis’ “Kinda Blue” and “Sketches of Spain,” Dave Brubeck’s “Time Out,” Bernstein’s “Rhapsody in Blue,” Copland’s “Appalachian Spring” and all the other Columbia SACDs that I own couldn’t even be ripped to iTunes or JRiver’s Media Player because these were single-layer discs with no Red Book CD layer.

     

    When I obtained an Oppo UDP-205 media player, I was heartened because the player used a state-of-the-art DAC section built around the top-of-the-line ESS “SaberDAC” ES9038PRO DAC chip and it supported SACD. Again, I was disappointed. The SaberDACs are of the Delta-Sigma variety and are (in my humble opinion) far inferior to many of the modern R2R (ladder DAC) designs for PCM, but due to their single-bit architecture should be perfect for SACD. So, I don’t understand why the SaberDAC Pro sounds so mediocre in this regard.  Both the Schiit Yggdrasil and the super-cheap Schiit Modi Multi-bit DACs performed rings around the ES9038PRO chips in the Oppo on PCM, but alas, none of the Schiit DACs support SACD. The Oppo, while it does support SACD, it really doesn’t sound all that much better than my cheap Sony Blu-Ray player. 

     

     

    Out of the Box Thinking


    I was contemplating writing-off my entire SACD collection because, let’s face it, who wants to listen to SACDs that sound, essentially no better (albeit somewhat different) than their Red Book versions? I was pretty much at a loss. When I received the Denafrips Pontus DAC, I was interested to note that all of the company’s DACs support the I2S digital interconnect protocol via HDMI. I also noted that the Oppo had two HDMI outputs. ‘VIDEO’ was, of course, for connection to one’s TV for playing Blu-Ray discs and DVDs. But I found the second one was labeled ‘AUDIO’ and that intrigued me. I also knew that even though no SACD player (to my knowledge) ever broke-out the DSD signal (the actual SACD digital format) from any player, that DSD signal was available as part of the HDMI digital video protocol.

     

    That got me thinking. I wondered if I could just connect an HDMI cable from the AUDIO  output of the Oppo directly to the HDMI input of the Pontus DAC. Even though I really didn’t expect it to work, I figured that it was worth a try. It couldn’t harm anything, and who knew? I might “get lucky”. Well I wasn’t disappointed when it didn’t work, after all that’s what I suspected would be the outcome.


    But, I was still intrigued with the possibility. The fact remained that the DSD signal from an SACD was available on the HDMI interface. But further reading of the Pontus manual told me that the HDMI input was dedicated solely to I2S digital signals. Was there any way to convert the HDMI from a Blu-Ray player to I2S? I went on E-Bay and searched for “HDMI to I2S”. My ad hoc search yielded a series of circuit boards and complete units that took an HDMI output from video sources and output I2S over HDMI as well as coaxial and optical SPDIF! All of the units and boards seemed to be the same thing from different vendors. The bare circuit boards were around US$45, and the complete, packaged units (same circuit) seemed to be US$55-$60. I ordered one of the complete units from China (naturally) and waited for it to arrive.

     

    Here’s the URL for the E-Bay page containing all of the converters from different vendors: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2499334.m570.l1312&_nkw=i2s&_sacat=0

     

     

    Connecting the Oppo Through the I2S Converter Box to the Denafrips DAC

     

    The I2S converter arrived from China during Christmas week. I couldn’t have asked for a nicer Christmas gift to myself. My friend Ted and I busied ourselves hooking it up.

     

    Let’s take a look at the converter unit. The box is about four-inches by four-inches by about two inches. Normally, this unit does not require an external DC power supply as most players will provide the needed 5 Volt DC via the HDMI cable. But, in case it does require external power. It's connected by the kind of barrel connector that often comes with wall-wart type supplies. The converter, however, comes with no power supply, wall-wart or otherwise, and the buyer must supply his own if his player does not supply the needed voltage or if the current from one’s HDMI source is insufficient. I felt that a better supply, than that available from my Oppo player, might be worth it, so I employed an ifi brand ‘iUSB’ box that I wasn’t using and a cable that had a USB Type A connector on one end and a suitable barrel connector on the other (BTW, about the unit’s power supply polarity; the unit comes with no documentation, and I had to test the polarity myself with a multimeter. So, to save any readers who want to try this project, the trouble of checking this themselves, the barrel is negative and the “tip” is positive.).

     

     

    image1.jpg image2.jpg

     


    The box has three HDMI female connectors, one is located on the audio output interface side of the unit. This is the output that goes to one’s DAC. The “output” side also sports a coax and a Toslink SPDIF connector and an I2S connector that I don’t recognize (and isn’t used in this application). The ‘HDMI side’ of the unit has the HDMI input from one’s player, and an HDMI output to one’s TV. Also provided is a three-position slide switch that enables the user switch the HDMI output between one’s TV, an amplifier that takes HDMI in, or ostensibly both (it’s labeled DUO, so I suspect that’s what it means – No manual, remember?). Then of course there is the 5 volt external power supply jack and a red LED indicating that an outboard power supply is connected and is turned on. 

     

    With the Oppo UDP-205, one connects the “Audio” HDMI output of the player to the input of the I2S converter box (if your player doesn’t have an audio-only HDMI output, use the video HDMI output) and the output of the HDMI side of the converter box goes to the HDMI input on one’s DAC.  That’s pretty straightforward.  

     

    Unfortunately, unless one is lucky (and depending on the brand of I2S connected DAC), that’s not all one must do. Apparently, there is no standard for connecting I2S over HDMI. The manufacturers can use any pins not used by the HDMI standard in the connector for the I2S interface. In many cases the user would have to find which pins on the converter box have the I2S signal on them and then perhaps rewire the DAC’s HDMI (or other I2S connector) to match. It is possible that your DSD-capable DAC doesn’t have an HDMI connector for I2S. The converter box also outputs I2S over both coax and Toslink. Denafrips has thoughtfully provided their DACs with a method for using the front panel switch buttons to allow the user to try all the different possible combinations. When the correct one is found, the I2S light on the front panel illuminates. Rather than go through the procedure here, I invite interested readers to go to the YouTube video listed below:

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    The video says that it's for the Venus II model, but it also applies to the Pontus, and both the Terminator and the Terminator+ models. The only Denafrips DAC that doesn’t support I2S is the entry level Ares II.


    As luck would have it, if you are using one of the Denafrips DACs that support I2S, The correct pinout to interface with the Chinese converter bought from E-Bay is the default Denafrips’ configuration!

     

     

    Operation

     

    Once the I2S light on the front panel is lit, you’re all set. Just insert an SACD into the player’s transport and hit play. The DSD light will come on and 44.1 KHz sampling light will illuminate, and the 1X light will also light-up. Ignore the sampling rate light, but the 1X light will indicate that a DSD 64 source is playing. DSD 64 is the default for SACD, and 1X is probably the only light that one will ever see. 2X would mean DSD128, and 3X would indicate DSD256. DSD512 is not supported, but that’s OK because there are no SACDs (to my knowledge) in either DSD 128 or DSD 512.

     

     

    Sound

     

    Be prepared for the best SACD playback that you have ever heard! I wish that my SCD-777ES was still functioning, to compare, but I do have the Oppo UDP-205 with the highly touted ESS ES9038PRO DAC chip and I have an inexpensive Sony Blu-Ray player that also plays SACD. Neither of them are even in the same galaxy with the Denafrips Pontus I2S configuration! The bass is deeper than the ESS DAC, the highs are cleaner and much less grainy. The soundstage is both wider and deeper and the image specificity (in recordings where such exists) is simply more holographic. Of course, all of this is contingent on what brand of I2S-capable DAC you end up using. In short, I noticed similar sonic characteristics with the Pontus that I experienced listening to 24/96, or 24/192 LPCM sources on the unit. 

     

    In conclusion, just for fun, I tried the setup with my cheap Sony BDP-BX37 Blu-Ray player (for which I paid less than $50). I turned on the DSD over HDMI option in the audio settings and connected it to the I2S converter box via the video HDMI out on the Sony. It worked perfectly as I suspected it would, but unexpectedly, the output from the Sony, though, supposedly merely a digital DSD data stream (after all, we are only using the players as transports), sounded much worse than the same SACDs with the Oppo as the transport!

     

    If you choose to go this route, I suspect that any Blu-Ray player that advertises that it will play SACD discs via HDMI will play them without hassle, but be aware that the end result will depend on the quality of the transport player every bit as much as it will depend on the quality of the I2S compatible DSD capable DAC. 


         

     




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    7 minutes ago, Daveyu said:

    are you using any special cables?

    No.... regular high-speed (18Mbps HDMI 1.2) cables ($20-30)

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    39 minutes ago, hgaggioni said:

    NO....the box was powered by the HDMI(DSD) source from the player

    nope just does not work for me 

    s4100?

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    5 hours ago, Daveyu said:

    I purchased the Chinese box, I have a Pontus and old Sony bdp-4100, I could not get it to work with SACDs and

    I have set DSD over hdmi in the Audio settings

     

    I have also read that someone could not get their Perfectwave SACD transport to work with the Pontus

     

     

    Did you read the linked article in Post #1 ?.

    You need to adjust the I2S settings in your Pontus to match these........

     

     

    Converter box I2S pin settings.jpg

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    12 hours ago, linger63 said:

     

    Did you read the linked article in Post #1 ?.

    You need to adjust the I2S settings in your Pontus to match these........

     

     

    Converter box I2S pin settings.jpg

    I used the method in video to set pin configuration 

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    On 2/3/2021 at 5:37 PM, linger63 said:

     

    Did you read the linked article in Post #1 ?.

    You need to adjust the I2S settings in your Pontus to match these........

     

     

    Converter box I2S pin settings.jpg

    The Chinese I2S box and the Pontus were on the same I2S interface, IE, the default interface, and no adjustment of the Pontus I2S connection should be necessary. As far as I can make out, the player used as the SACD transport has nothing to do with the I2S/Pontus interface. If your player isn’t working, I suggest you try another. I’ve yet to find  blu-ray player which will support SACD that doesn’t work with this set-up.

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    5 hours ago, gmgraves said:

    The Chinese I2S box and the Pontus were on the same I2S interface, IE, the default interface, and no adjustment of the Pontus I2S connection should be necessary. As far as I can make out, the player used as the SACD transport has nothing to do with the I2S/Pontus interface. If your player isn’t working, I suggest you try another. I’ve yet to find  blu-ray player which will support SACD that doesn’t work with this set-up.

    Not sure its the player as when I connect it to my AV amp and play a SACD it says DSD playing, think it must be the box, there are so many on eBay now

    Can you say which was the one you actually purchased or who the seller was ?

    Do you know what setting IS2 setting (xxx) you have on the Pontus

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    10 minutes ago, Daveyu said:

    Not sure its the player as when I connect it to my AV amp and play a SACD it says DSD playing, think it must be the box, there are so many on eBay now

    Can you say which was the one you actually purchased or who the seller was ?

    Do you know what setting IS2 setting (xxx) you have on the Pontus

    I set my Pontus to    010

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    Interesting, I connected HDMI input to Blu Ray player, HDMI output to AV receiver and nothing

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    4 hours ago, Daveyu said:

    Not sure its the player as when I connect it to my AV amp and play a SACD it says DSD playing, think it must be the box, there are so many on eBay now

    Can you say which was the one you actually purchased or who the seller was ?

    Do you know what setting IS2 setting (xxx) you have on the Pontus

    As I wrote the above, it occurred to me that maybe, just because all of these I2S boxes LOOK the same, doesn’t necessarily mean that they ARE the same. Did I merely luck-out? Still, one should be able to find the proper pin-out by following the instructions provided by Denifrips in the You-tube video.

     

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    On 2/5/2021 at 11:41 AM, gmgraves said:

    “My ad hoc search yielded a series of circuit boards and complete units that took an HDMI output from video sources and output I2S over HDMI as well as coaxial and optical SPDIF!“

     

    George, apologies if you addressed this elsewhere.  Does the Chinese box output DSD over the coax and/or optical outputs?   Have you tried either to your D’frips DAC?  I just don’t know I2S well enough and whether the only SACD playback option from this Chinese box will be over the hdmi output.   I have one of these boxes coming in a few days and will try with an Oppo 95 and a few older DACs lying around.  The GeerFab people tell me the Oppo 95 works well with their DBOB converter.

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    1 hour ago, jxo said:

    George, apologies if you addressed this elsewhere.  Does the Chinese box output DSD over the coax and/or optical outputs?   Have you tried either to your D’frips DAC?  I just don’t know I2S well enough and whether the only SACD playback option from this Chinese box will be over the hdmi output.   I have one of these boxes coming in a few days and will try with an Oppo 95 and a few older DACs lying around.  The GeerFab people tell me the Oppo 95 works well with their DBOB converter.

    It does . It outputs from I2S from SPDIF, both optical (Toslink) and coaxial, and it outputs also from HDMI and pure I2S over what seems to be a Molex-type I2S connector. Since my understanding is that the Denafrips Pontus only accepts I2S over HDMI, I am unable to test the efficacy of I2S over the SPDIF interconnects.

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    On 2/6/2021 at 7:53 PM, gmgraves said:

    It does . It outputs from I2S from SPDIF, both optical (Toslink) and coaxial, and it outputs also from HDMI and pure I2S over what seems to be a Molex-type I2S connector. Since my understanding is that the Denafrips Pontus only accepts I2S over HDMI, I am unable to test the efficacy of I2S over the SPDIF interconnects.

    I tried SPDIF (coax and optical) into the Pontus DAC from the Chinese Box and it work perfectly. I did not noticed any difference vs connecting with HDMI-I2S. The SQ of the DSD appears identical over the three connections. Hence, I think the box is truly sending the DSD64 over the three types of interfaces to the Pontus. The Pontus manual says that DSD64 is available over all inputs.

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    2 hours ago, hgaggioni said:

    I tried SPDIF (coax and optical) into the Pontus DAC from the Chinese Box and it work perfectly. I did not noticed any difference vs connecting with HDMI-I2S. The SQ of the DSD appears identical over the three connections. Hence, I think the box is truly sending the DSD64 over the three types of interfaces to the Pontus. The Pontus manual says that DSD64 is available over all inputs.

    Do you still need the box, or can go direct from player to DAC? 

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    2 hours ago, hgaggioni said:

    I tried SPDIF (coax and optical) into the Pontus DAC from the Chinese Box and it work perfectly. I did not noticed any difference vs connecting with HDMI-I2S. The SQ of the DSD appears identical over the three connections. Hence, I think the box is truly sending the DSD64 over the three types of interfaces to the Pontus. The Pontus manual says that DSD64 is available over all inputs.

    Good to know. I didn’t try it because from what I gathered from an Internet article I read, it wasn’t supposed to work. BTW, did you notice any difference between the performance of optical vs coax? This clears up a connection dilemma that I have now that I’ve employed the new Denafrips Hermes DTD box into the system (it wants HDMI too!). Thanks for the clarification and the correction. Much appreciated!

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    41 minutes ago, Rexp said:

    Do you still need the box, or can go direct from player to DAC? 

    I wouldn’t think so. The only place the DSD signal exists out of any Blu-ray player that supports SACD is over HDMI. The DSD data does not, AFAIK, appear on the “digital out” of any player as it’s not allowed by the SACD protocol specification. The HDMI output of any player have the audio stripped from the HDMI connector and output as a I2S signal before the Pontus sees it as DSD.

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    5 hours ago, gmgraves said:

    Good to know. I didn’t try it because from what I gathered from an Internet article I read, it wasn’t supposed to work. BTW, did you notice any difference between the performance of optical vs coax? This clears up a connection dilemma that I have now that I’ve employed the new Denafrips Hermes DTD box into the system (it wants HDMI too!). Thanks for the clarification and the correction. Much appreciated!

    It was not a thorough investigation, but I tried a number of CDs and SCADs and kept switching between the three connection types. I could not detect any difference listening with speakers. I did not tried listening with headphones (our of the Pontus though an external headphone amp) to do a closer examination.

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    12 hours ago, hgaggioni said:

    It was not a thorough investigation, but I tried a number of CDs and SCADs and kept switching between the three connection types. I could not detect any difference listening with speakers. I did not tried listening with headphones (our of the Pontus though an external headphone amp) to do a closer examination.

    This may have been referenced previously, but on point:

    https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/study-is-i²s-interface-better-for-dacs-than-s-pdif-or-usb.7105/

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    16 hours ago, hgaggioni said:

    It was not a thorough investigation, but I tried a number of CDs and SCADs and kept switching between the three connection types. I could not detect any difference listening with speakers. I did not tried listening with headphones (our of the Pontus though an external headphone amp) to do a closer examination.

    After your last post, I tried both optical and coax connections from the I2S “box“. I could get my Pontus to recognize neither one of them. It simply did not work. I’m beginning to wonder if there aren’t differences between these boxes bought through different vendors (???!!!).

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    6 hours ago, gmgraves said:

    After your last post, I tried both optical and coax connections from the I2S “box“. I could get my Pontus to recognize neither one of them. It simply did not work. I’m beginning to wonder if there aren’t differences between these boxes bought through different vendors (???!!!).

    It seems like this is likely the case.  Just to provide more details : I am connecting the Sony's XA5400 HDMI o/p to the box. The XA5400 explicitly indicates the selection of HDMI as an o/p (disabling its SPIDF and Toslink o/p) and further selection between multi-channel or stereo over HDMI. Then the box outputs HDMI-IIS, SPIDF and Toslink to the Pontus - all of them working correctly.  I only tried an UBP-X1100ES into the box over HDMI, with the o/p of the box's IIS to the Pontus and it worked. I will try sometime, in the next couple of days, the SPIDF and Toslink of the box into the Pontus and will report to this forum. Cheers...

     

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    This box worked for me, I use a Sony Bluray and a Audiolab M-Dac+ and can now hear full fat SACD audio. Initially the box didn't seem to work until I plugged in a 5v Power supply, and then it kicked  in. I am so happy, thanks for the tip.

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    1 hour ago, Bitsnsounds said:

    This box worked for me, I use a Sony Bluray and a Audiolab M-Dac+ and can now hear full fat SACD audio. Initially the box didn't seem to work until I plugged in a 5v Power supply, and then it kicked  in. I am so happy, thanks for the tip.

    Are you able to say which of these "boxes" you actually purchased ?

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    22 hours ago, Daveyu said:

    Are you able to say which of these "boxes" you actually purchased ?

    Made some  progress by using an external 5v power supply, thanks to Bitsnsounds, now the DSD light on the Pontus lights up, unfortunately I'm not getting any sound from speakers and I have checked all the cabling

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    On 2/9/2021 at 2:14 PM, Bitsnsounds said:

    This box worked for me, I use a Sony Bluray and a Audiolab M-Dac+ and can now hear full fat SACD audio. Initially the box didn't seem to work until I plugged in a 5v Power supply, and then it kicked  in. I am so happy, thanks for the tip.

    Which input did you use on the M-Dac+ ?

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    On 2/9/2021 at 9:14 AM, Bitsnsounds said:

    This box worked for me, I use a Sony Bluray and a Audiolab M-Dac+ and can now hear full fat SACD audio. Initially the box didn't seem to work until I plugged in a 5v Power supply, and then it kicked  in. I am so happy, thanks for the tip.

    can you post a link to the 5v PS you used?   thanks much.

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    On 2/8/2021 at 11:47 PM, gmgraves said:

    After your last post, I tried both optical and coax connections from the I2S “box“. I could get my Pontus to recognize neither one of them. It simply did not work. I’m beginning to wonder if there aren’t differences between these boxes bought through different vendors (???!!!).

    Some of the listings for these boxes refer to Board B versions implying an update.  Thanks for all your work on this George.

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