Simple Design Rendu Ethernet to S/PDIF Converter Review

I don't know of one but I would imagine that a small, silent computer device could be devised to fill that need. It would be a niche that no one is currently filling.

The bigger question is, why didn't Simple Design go with USB out in coming up up with their design for the Rendu? I would think that the majority of DACs these days work with USB(this being true of Sonore's own DSD DAC).

Esau

In UPnP parlance the Rendu is considered the "Media Renderer" (hence the name)--the slave device that can playback the stream, into a DAC via S/PDIF in this case. As Chris mentioned in his comparison, one can compare the output from from the CAPS computer (as a UPnP Server when running software like JRiver which can function as one) either via Ethernet into the Rendu, or via USB (or optical TosLink/coax S/PDIF either internal or external) direct into a DAC.

 

Shoot, I was trying to answer your question simply, but failed. Try again:

The point of the Rendu is to have your computer in a different room than your DAC and stereo, and then to use a UPnP compatible remote control app (Controller in UPnP lingo) in your lap in front of the stereo.

 

As you can tell from his write-up and from the many challenges people have with UPnP set-ups, it can be a complicated affair. Also, iTunes users are pretty much left out in the cold. But now that first versions of JRiver are available for OS X, Mac users do have a reasonable option. But niceties like software upsampling and other DSP plug-ins don't seem to be part of the UPnP picture. While it is good to have the choices and flexibility offered by a UPnP Renderer such as the Rendu, I would want to compare that type of set-up versus the "OS-bypassing" "purity players" such as Amarra, Pure Music, Audirvana Plus, JPlay, HQPlayer, etc.

 

Seems to me that if you already have a suitable, quiet and dedicated little computer for audio playback, a renderer and the trouble of UPnP is a bit redundant since you can do remote control of your music library manager/player with many apps and there are more s/w choices. However, if you have a big, noisy, multipurpose family computer in your den or office--and prefer to manage your music library there--then a renderer is a great way to send quality audio to your listening studio.

Sonore seems to have done a very fine job with this product for that purpose. I wish Jesus much success with it.

Still not very clear.. would like to ask some questions..

1. The Sonore Rendu is a UPNP renderer, similar to something like a squeezebox or Linn? The ethernet connection will be from router to the Rendu, correct?

2. When using the control app, we 'push' the upnp signal from Jriver to this renderer?

3. It will be unable to playback all other sources from PC - e.g. sync with video, directsound (for youtube, games), etc.

I'm new to this type of stuff. Because it was easy to figure out how to set it up and (until it was discontinued) the price was right, I set up a Squeezebox Touch to be at the heart of my home audio system. I'm using it to stream from my PC to the Squeezebox and I'm connecting from the Squeezebox to a Benchmark DAC with a coaxial digital cable. That's pretty much what this Sonore Rendu device does, right? So this is what I am wondering -- what what advantage does a $1369 Sonore Rendu have over a $300 Squeezebox other than that it is still in production?

Congrats to Simple Designs to achieve hires gapless for FLAC and other formats, where the majors have failed (or couldn't care less or 'too hard'). There's something in the review that's stands out as premature though.

"The remaining users must user a longer distance technology like Ethernet. "

Must use Ethernet....is ST fiber, USB Extender using Cat5 or Multimode fiber forgotten, obsolete or proven not to work?

I don't know of one but I would imagine that a small, silent computer device could be devised to fill that need. It would be a niche that no one is currently filling.

 

The bigger question is, why didn't Simple Design go with USB out in coming up up with their design for the Rendu? I would think that the majority of DACs these days work with USB(this being true of Sonore's own DSD DAC).

 

Esau

Esau, the Rendu will not have USB output. The Rendu is Asynchronous as are some USB devices in producing the supported outputs so you are not losing that capability. The outputs (i2s, analog, MSB, etc..) that we are developing are part of our commitment to support as many formats as possible. The Rendu is meant to be a hot rod with a dedicated audio board and high quality PS. The Rendu is about getting back to basics...

Jesus R

Congrats to Simple Designs to achieve hires gapless for FLAC and other formats, where the majors have failed (or couldn't care less or 'too hard'). There's something in the review that's stands out as premature though.

 

"The remaining users must user a longer distance technology like Ethernet. "

 

Must use Ethernet....is ST fiber, USB Extender using Cat5 or Multimode fiber forgotten, obsolete or proven not to work?

The Logitech's Squeezebox Touch @ $300 has offered gapless playback over ethernet from the beginning. Does "Simple Designs" justify it's additional $1000 in price by doing something that the Squeezebox doesn't do?

Still not very clear.. would like to ask some questions..

 

1. The Sonore Rendu is a UPNP renderer, similar to something like a squeezebox or Linn? The ethernet connection will be from router to the Rendu, correct?

Yes

2. When using the control app, we 'push' the upnp signal from Jriver to this renderer?

Not exactly. The controller informs the Renderer where and what to play. It's similar to Google telling your browser where a webpage from a search is.

3. It will be unable to playback all other sources from PC - e.g. sync with video, directsound (for youtube, games), etc.

This is not a limitation of the Rendu. We need a third party app that performs this function. There is one such app underdevelopment, but it's not available yet.

Jesus R

Are XLR outputs an option for the DAC, or AES for the renderer?

The Logitech's Squeezebox Touch @ $300 has offered gapless playback over ethernet from the beginning. Does "Simple Designs" justify it's additional $1000 in price by doing something that the Squeezebox doesn't do?

Somsak, we can choose to build a Beetle or a Ferrari. We chose to build a Ferrari. Without getting into the short comings of other products the Rendu is quite different compared to the Touch.

Nothing against a Beetle though...I use to own a 57 oval:)

Jesus R

Congrats to Simple Designs to achieve hires gapless for FLAC and other formats, where the majors have failed (or couldn't care less or 'too hard'). There's something in the review that's stands out as premature though.

 

"The remaining users must user a longer distance technology like Ethernet. "

 

Must use Ethernet....is ST fiber, USB Extender using Cat5 or Multimode fiber forgotten, obsolete or proven not to work?

Thanks. I think what Chris was trying to say is that after a certain distance with USB you are better off going to ethernet. I have not tried the various USB extender options. The Sabre DAC module design does not lend itself to balanced outputs and would not have added anything to it. However, I am developing a single bit converter for DSD playback that will have both balanced and unbalanced outputs. The general idea is that the Rendu is very close to your DAC where a properly terminated SPDIF connection is more than enough to do the job. I prefer and recommend BNC connections because they are 75 OHM per the SPDIF spec.

Jesus R

Somsak, we can choose to build a Beetle or a Ferrari. We chose to build a Ferrari. Without getting into the short comings of other products the Rendu is quite different compared to the Touch.

 

Nothing against a Beetle though...I use to own a 57 oval:)

 

Jesus R

OK, but from what's written in the review I'm not grasping what, other than DSD playback, the product brings to the table that is lacking in products costing 1/4 as much. Going with your automobile analogy, I know what a Ferrari does that a Beetle cannot. Those things can easily be demonstrated and one can decide for themselves whether those things are worth the price differential. I'm less clear about that with Simple Designs vs Squeezebox - what is the differentiating factor between the products? Is it a fair assumption that the sound quality of the Simple Designs device is in another league entirely?

Sorry for dumb questions.

1/ Does an attached DAC have to be capable of DSD D->A conversion to work with this device?

2/ If no. Is there a setting in software in the Rendu that does DSD-> PCM conversion

3/ What DSD capable DAC's are definitely compliant. Is the Invicta? Is there definitive list from Sonore?

Cheers

Somsak, there are actually quite a few underlining differences some are small and some are significant. The Touch is mass produced, distributed and then sold through a dealer. The true cost of that product is actually much less than 200-300 bucks. For arguments sake says it cost 150 bucks to produce. You as a consumer have to consider what your getting for that 150 bucks. I won't go into details here in the forum, but just one part on our custom hand built linear power supply costs us 70 bucks and some of the designs use two of these parts. Also, my customers know the most important thing they get when they buy a Sonore product...

Jesus R

OK, but from what's written in the review I'm not grasping what, other than DSD playback, the product brings to the table that is lacking in products costing 1/4 as much. Going with your automobile analogy, I know what a Ferrari does that a Beetle cannot. Those things can easily be demonstrated and one can decide for themselves whether those things are worth the price differential. I'm less clear about that with Simple Designs vs Squeezebox - what is the differentiating factor between the products? Is it a fair assumption that the sound quality of the Simple Designs device is in another league entirely?

Hi Somsak - One huge difference is UPnP support. The Squeezebox isn't really a UPnP renderer as it requires use of the squeeze server software. That's a giant limitation. Also the SB can't play 4x high resolution and the user interface / controller options are very limited compared to the Rendu.

Somsak, there are actually quite a few underlining differences some are small and some are significant. The Touch is mass produced, distributed and then sold through a dealer. The true cost of that product is actually much less than 200-300 bucks. For arguments sake says it cost 150 bucks to produce. You as a consumer have to consider what your getting for that 150 bucks. I won't go into details here in the forum, but just one part on our custom hand built linear power supply costs us 70 bucks and some of the designs use two of these parts. Also, my customers know the most important thing they get when they buy a Sonore product...

 

Jesus R

Capitalism sucks, but I don't make the rules. Actually I would expect it that Logitech pays (paid) much less than $150 per unit to have each SB Touch built. Logitech, being a huge company, is going to have pricing power over its assembly subcontractors that the little guys could never dream of obtaining. But that's to the consumer's benefit not to their detriment. If it costs you more to have your units built that doesn't benefit me as a consumer. That you only make 30% on something I must pay $1300 for is not a better deal to the me than Logitech making 200% on a SB that sells for $300. What matters to me is how much benefit I get per dollar spent, not how much money my equipment supplier is making compared to their investment. Sure, the SB is/was mass produced, but I'm not so sure that's a bad thing in this case.

Hi Somsak - One huge difference is UPnP support. The Squeezebox isn't really a UPnP renderer as it requires use of the squeeze server software. That's a giant limitation. Also the SB can't play 4x high resolution and the user interface / controller options are very limited compared to the Rendu.

Maybe I should try asking my question more directly. Does a Simple Designs unit outputting SPDIF to a high quality DAC sound better than a Squeezebox Touch doing the same?

What matters to me is how much benefit I get per dollar spent, not how much money my equipment supplier is making compared to their investment. Sure, the SB is/was mass produced, but I'm not so sure that's a bad thing in this case.

Hi Somsak - That's a very good point. Your questions about the SB v. Rendu are very good as well. I've use both products and have both products here right now. I didn't write about the SB in this review because it's such a different product. Comparing the two is really comparing apples to oranges. Yes both are network audio devices but without real UPnP / DLNA support the SB is extremely limited. Limitations and all the SB was a great deal for $300 when it was available.

Maybe I should try asking my question more directly. Does a Simple Designs unit outputting SPDIF to a high quality DAC sound better than a Squeezebox Touch doing the same?

That makes it much easier :~)

I didn't compare the two, although I can, but my guess is the Rendu will sound much better. One reason is the SB has no isolation on the S/PDIF output. There is a direct link from the noisy switching PSU through the S/PDIF output and into the DAC. Reducing jitter is one thing, but for a DAC to eliminate this noise is something else all together.

That makes it much easier :~)

 

I didn't compare the two, although I can, but my guess is the Rendu will sound much better. One reason is the SB has no isolation on the S/PDIF output. There is a direct link from the noisy switching PSU through the S/PDIF output and into the DAC. Reducing jitter is one thing, but for a DAC to eliminate this noise is something else all together.

rendu and sbt address to different perspectives...

- sbt for The ones seeking the basic networking needs, for a low cost;

- rendu for a no compromised approach and boutique built...

Users who bought the SBT with a wish to no compromised sound started a journey of tweeking, that is completely avoided by the rendu...

my concern is that at that cost the rendu will not retail at a competitive cost in Europe..

rendu and sbt address to different perspectives...

- sbt for The ones seeking the basic networking needs, for a low cost;

- rendu for a no compromised approach and boutique built...

 

Users who bought the SBT with a wish to no compromised sound started a journey of tweeking, that is completely avoided by the rendu...

 

my concern is that at that cost the rendu will not retail at a competitive cost in Europe..

If the Simply Designs unit is in fact leagues above cheaper options in terms of sound quality then that in itself answers my question. But if it isn't, then I have to ask what's the point? If it's just for greater convenience or for something that is theoretically important to some people, I'll choose to pay $1000 less and be slightly inconvenienced. But if it produces distinctly superior sound, I'd part with that extra $1000 gladly.

Hi Somsak - That's a very good point. Your questions about the SB v. Rendu are very good as well. I've use both products and have both products here right now. I didn't write about the SB in this review because it's such a different product. Comparing the two is really comparing apples to oranges. Yes both are network audio devices but without real UPnP / DLNA support the SB is extremely limited. Limitations and all the SB was a great deal for $300 when it was available.

With the SBT being discontinued there have been some people scalping the SBT on ebay for $400 or more. Even at those prices, it seems to have a better price-to-performance ratio than anything else on the market. I think that's true even for the stock unit, without any mods or tweaks -- assuming that you're using the S/PDIF outputs rather than the built-in DAC.

Sorry for dumb questions.

 

1/ Does an attached DAC have to be capable of DSD D->A conversion to work with this device?

No because the SPDIF output is regular PCM and is compatible with any DAC with SPDIF input.

2/ If no. Is there a setting in software in the Rendu that does DSD-> PCM conversion

JRiver acting as the server can do this for you. I can also make a version that can do this is in hardware as an option. The hardware solution is actually very good and outputs 176.4K or 88.2K selectable depending on your DAC.

3/ What DSD capable DAC's are definitely compliant. Is the Invicta? Is there definitive list from Sonore?

 

Cheers

Again any DAC with SPDIF input. The list of DACs that support DSD/DoP via their digital inputs can be looked up here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0

Capitalism sucks, but I don't make the rules. Actually I would expect it that Logitech pays (paid) much less than $150 per unit to have each SB Touch built. Logitech, being a huge company, is going to have pricing power over its assembly subcontractors that the little guys could never dream of obtaining. But that's to the consumer's benefit not to their detriment. If it costs you more to have your units built that doesn't benefit me as a consumer. That you only make 30% on something I must pay $1300 for is not a better deal to the me than Logitech making 200% on a SB that sells for $300. What matters to me is how much benefit I get per dollar spent, not how much money my equipment supplier is making compared to their investment. Sure, the SB is/was mass produced, but I'm not so sure that's a bad thing in this case.

Your political points of view are of no interest to me....

There is a lot that your not considering and your making some incorrect assumptions. The fact is that the Rendu is more expensive because we build the PS by hand to a higher standard and the design calls for better and more expensive parts overall. If these features are not important to you then cast your vote and buy something else....

Jesus R

^OK. Thanks Jesus...Cool. Now I understand. This looks like a great device to add streaming capability (including DSD files) to any old DAC device with the appropriate connection....but yiy have to chose the correct Redu you need carefully. like Id need the hardware DSD->PCM one for say my old Benckmark DAC1. Nice one.

With the SBT being discontinued there have been some people scalping the SBT on ebay for $400 or more. Even at those prices, it seems to have a better price-to-performance ratio than anything else on the market. I think that's true even for the stock unit, without any mods or tweaks -- assuming that you're using the S/PDIF outputs rather than the built-in DAC.

Somsak: Let me try and answer your question. Please consider that I do some consulting with Sonore. If you are very familiar with the SBT, perhaps you aware of all the people adding many modifications to it to improve its performance? I have seen many folks spend hundreds of dollars on external power supplies for the touch, and clock upgrades are also quite popular for folks trying to eek out some more performance from the SBT. No doubt, the Touch is great at what it does, and offers outstanding value. Perhaps, it offers adequate sound quality for you to be happy with it, there is nothing wrong with that, but, considering how much money and effort some folks are spending on upgrades to the Touch, it is clear that some people are looking for higher performance in terms of sound quality.

The Rendu is a no compromise design, built to give the best sound quality possible when paired with a high end DAC. It features an onboard ultra low noise, ultra low output impedance power supply, which is critical in achieving low jitter. Additionally, all the clocking components are very high quality, in order to achieve the lowest jitter possible. Now, is this difference going to be meaningful to you, I cannot answer that question, only you can. All I can say is that the Rendu is designed to provide the highest sound quality possible, whereas the SBT was a mass produced consumer product, designed to suit the sound quality needs of average consumers.

It is up to the audiophile to decide if the gains in performance are worth the cost of the unit.