Windows 7 Music Server - The First 48 Hours

I have tested the actual Version of J.River MC 14.0.84 in Windows 7 Home Premium 32 under the exclusive WASAPI Mode and it works perfect in every way.<br />

<br />

Juergen<br />

I installed J. River 14 and tried WASAPI in exclusive mode. Sometimes it works, sometimes it gives an error saying that my sound card can't reproduce. The first time I open the player and play a song it works, but I'm still figuring out how to reproduce this and experiment with the configs.<br />

ASIO works fine though, but I didn't have time to compare J.River with MediaMonkey both in native ASIO on Win7 x64.

I just upgraded my Zalman Music Server from WinXP Pro to W7 Pro 64 bit and am hearing improvements in sound quality - increased clarity, resolution and macro/micro detail. I'm not sure how much of the improvements are due to W7 or the new Lynx 64 bit driver for my AES16 PCI card (which drives a Berkeley Alpha DAC), but I am very pleased. I'm using Samplitude 10 as a digital player.<br />

<br />

Overall I'm more of an Apple guy, but I must admit that so far I am very impressed with W7. It is decidedly faster, more stable and responsive than WinXP. I use a Netbook to remote control my Zalman with Remote Desktop Connection and compared to WinXP Pro where I would get periodic drop outs in playback I have had zero drop outs with W7.

Matias,<br />

<br />

Thanks so much. I use a USB dac and i want to use Win 7 64 bit. Seems to me like the App works. Are you able to use USB to your Dac?<br />

<br />

Liz

Hi Chris - I've been a periodic lurker on your site here, and a regular over on Head-Fi for a bit. I have to say you're doing a great job!<br />

<br />

I too, was hoping Windows 7 would "finally work." I had high hopes this past couple months as I've been testing the Release Candidate. It actually installed very cleanly and I even had my Older E-Mu 1212m up and running with relatively minimal headache. This computer is my "all-in-one" HTPC, so I needed a full-featured HTPC frontend, and the Windows 7 Media Center certainly delivers the goods. The OS in general is very clean, fast, and has actually been a joy to use...except that I've had a weird latency issue with my 1212m and my keyboard, of all things.<br />

<br />

I researched and found this on the Microsoft Developer Website:<br />

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<cite>The Microsoft Windows audio team is working hard to reduce overall audio latency in future Windows operating systems. An important part of this effort is to provide low-latency implementations of audio APIs in order to eliminate any need to access the KS audio components directly.</cite><br />

<br />

<cite>The plan for future Windows products is to provide built-in multimedia APIs and core services with very low latency and complete bit-for-bit transparency. These features should eliminate the need for any application program to circumvent the audio subsystem....Be forewarned that the DirectKS approach is unlikely to work on operating systems after Windows XP and Windows Server 2003.</cite><br />

<br />

That, from this page:<br />

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http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/directks.mspx<br />

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Now, it's admirable that Microsoft seemed to be working on bit-perfect output, but this was from 2002. We're at 2009, and bit-perfect output seems still a bit far afield. If Microsoft has stuck to their guns, and DirectSound is not yet yielding true bitperfect output, I fear we're in for a long wait.<br />

<br />

It's a real pity, because I've actually enjoyed working in the OS. Double-pity because Windows 7 Media Center is the best overall HTPC frontend implementation I've seen even compared to my previous favorite, MediaPortal (which is currently breaking on 7, depending on your situation). It even does quite a few things better than MythTV and XBMC, which I'd also tested pretty extensively.<br />

<br />

It does everything except *ahem* play back cleanly while I'm working at the computer.<br />

<br />

*Sigh*....I feel like I'm going to have to wander in the desert again for another 40 years.

The entire audio subsystem in Vista was completely rewritten, compared to XP. There was a great deal of development effort (the group was over 1000 persons) to make Vista and MCE capable of high quality audio and video playback for HTPC applications.<br />

<br />

The main difference is that in Vista, and now Windows 7, the audio subsystem changed from interger to floating point arithemetic, with sophisticated algorithms used for the volume control. In addition, there is extensive and highly advanced room EQ software under the enhancements tab, assuming that the Lynx drivers support it.<br />

<br />

Apparently HDCD playback to the Berkeley Audio is not consistent. In some cases, with volume control set to unity, exclusive mode, etc., you may get the HDCD light to come on. Or you may not Would you please try this out for us? <br />

<br />

The UI software was also completely rewritten, resulting in much faster apparent responsiveness. However, the general purpose compute speed (databases, image processing, etc.) of Win 7 is very roughly half that of XP, depending on the task, other conditions being equal. XP was an exceptionally fast operating system, although it is rather limited in many ways compared to Vista/Win 7.<br />

<br />

What's fundamentally different about Win 7 is that, compared to XP, it is enormously more scalable in terms of improvement in performance as the number of cores increases. As the cores head towards 8 and 16, Win 7 will then be about as fast, or faster than XP. If you check out typical consumer desktops at Costco, they're already 4 cores, which when hyperthreaded, yields 8 functional cores. <br />

<br />

So Win 7 performance is coming up very quickly, together with declining cost to consumers.

To use the exclusive WASAPI mode in J.River correctly you have to set two important windows right: Go to: Tools – Options – Playback – DSP … - Output Format – Bitdepth – and choose 24 Bit (in case you have a 24 Bit soundcard) and the second point is: Go to: Tools – Options – Playback – Output Mode setting – and remove the point “present 24-bit data in a 32 bit package and then for me, J.River works perfect in Windows 7 and Vista, 100 % Bit True.<br />

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Sound of in Windows 7: I must also confirm that for me the sound in Windows 7, with absolutely the same hardware as in Vista, is more transparent with more resolution and more detail. A slightly weaker bass, but I think this comes from the higher resolution in the treble. Also the latency seems smaller, than in Vista. But still no native support for 88200 Hz (but either WASAPI or manufacturer made W7 driver can circumvent this point and will play 88.2).<br />

<br />

USB DAC is working fine in Windows 7.<br />

<br />

I have just repeated three measurements with Windows 7 for Bit True test and only the exclusive WASAPI mode is natively bit perfect in Windows 7, nor the Direct Sound Out or the Wave Out is. I am sorry, that I can’t post any pictures; otherwise you would be able to see it also.<br />

<br />

Juergen<br />

<br />

PS: I used my “special” Bit True test signal, created out of two different Bit True test signals from the Audio Precision System. This is a 16 Bit DC (constant value) on the left channel and 24 Bit Walking Zero test on the right channel test, to use only one test for testing bit true digital systems.<br />

Hi zaubertuba - welcome here !<br />

<br />

I think your post fairly well represents what most people think about audio and Windows, but in the mean time you may have missed the point. I mean, the low latency is in (far better possibilities than ASIO ever will achieve) all is outside the kernel (streaming) (meaning : at the "user level" now), and all is bit perfect now without hassle. And you know it ... it is called WASAPI.<br />

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That software players need to support that, and that you need to choose it as playback device is another matter. But it is all there as promised, and personally (from the developer point of view) I think it is great.<br />

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Regards,<br />

Peter<br />

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Actually I'm having trouble to make the sound work with my Juli@ in Windows 7 overall. Sound effects, YouTube, nothing sounds except ASIO in MediaMonkey or J.River. I tried switching analog/digital, enable/disable devices, testing and troubleshooting... and nothing.<br />

Clean install on formated drive + newest drivers, everything as clean as it could be. Very annoying.<br />

<br />

JR_Audio, I tried the settings you said and still no good. I guess the drivers are broken.

@XXHighEnd:<br />

<br />

"What!? I'm using legacy drivers on an old soundcard on a spanking-new OS and they're not working perfectly?!" --All that just to say, point well-taken. <br />

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The E-Mu drivers may indeed be causing part of my headache, as they continue to try to use ASIO. I suppose it's a wonder the card works at all. *sigh* I may end up having to upgrade my soundcard. Pity, because it really does sound quite decent when I'm *not hammering away at the keyboard.<br />

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I still see a problem, though if Chris and others are having problems getting more modern cards/updated drivers working, then what's left? How long do we have to wait for the card manufacturers to step up to the plate?<br />

<br />

Considering this, maybe external would be a better option. How's Windows 7 for USB or S/PDIF to an external DAC?<br />

<br />

EDIT: I may be barking up the wrong tree. Some research suggests my issue may be related to some other hardware. Stay tuned!

Hi Matias,<br />

<br />

First of all notice there are new W7 drivers for the Juli@. I won't say that helps because it just as well can be player issues. The only thing I know from a couple of XXHighEnd users is that they don't see a problem whatsoever with W7 and the former Juli@ drivers.<br />

<br />

Also notice that a WASAPI implementation can be done in many ways (by the developers), so it doesn't say much when one works, about the other.<br />

<br />

And FYI :<br />

By now I have one call from one user, which call seems to prove that something working under Vista does not under W7. This could be accidentally solved by settings in XXHE, but this is/was certainly not my intention. Were this setting not there, the sound for this user would just have stopped under W7.<br />

So it seems there *is* something going on. And this is about normal USB ...<br />

<br />

HTH a bit,<br />

Peter<br />

:-)<br />

<br />

EMU drivers are a hell. But it can be done. You may contact the person (Gerard) of this post on how to do it for your 1212m : http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=943.msg7853#msg7853 <br />

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He doesn't use W7, but I don't think that matters.<br />

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Good luck,<br />

Peter<br />

<br />

I installed the latest and greatest drivers on their website, v1.07, in a clean Win7. If it doesn't work that way, I can't imagine why.

Matias, it won't be so that you are using RDC ? if so, W7 has some new (?) config parameter, and without explicitly changing that you won't even see the proper sound devices.<br />

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If this is not it, I guess here my help ends. You may try XXHighEnd though, and when it doesn't work there I am quite confident I will be able to solve the problem for you. I mean, I know what is happening in XXHE plus I know it works. This means for you it will get to work too. And next you hop back to MM or whatever you want. No problem.<br />

One thing to keep in mind when you are going to try this route : when it works right from the start I still can't help any further (well, I think).<br />

<br />

In XXHE Settings, set your DAC Is to whatever it is (the DAC behind the Juli@ if there, otherwise 24/192 which the Juli@ is) and set DAC Needs to 32 (!).<br />

Don't forget to use Engine3 (WASAPI) and slide up the volume to the max, assuming you're using a preamp.<br />

If you have no sound in this setting, but everything seems to work, try Q1 (slider) settings of 4, 14 and 20; I have an indication that this may differ (while in Vista it worked always).<br />

<br />

If you don't feel like trying this, I am as ok.<br />

<br />

Peter

Tested this player with my Win7 x64 + Juli@ 1.07 @ SPDIF.<br />

External DAC is a Benchmark DAC1 USB @ SPDIF.<br />

Engines #1 and #2 don't play, says it is out of memory.<br />

Engine #3 plays with muted sound, no output in the Juli@'s mixer.<br />

BTW, I tried registering to your forum but you won't accept Gmail accounts.

Thanks Peter, but as it turns out, I was indeed barking up the wrong tree. Turned out the problem was....<br />

<br />

<br />

....my keyboard. Or possibly the PS2 port on my Motherboard.<br />

<br />

I ran DPC latency checker and it was showing major latency spikes whenever I typed. Another ASIO buffer test I did with a Cubasis configuration tool showed that Cubasis actually lost sync with the card when I typed (it was fine if I didn't touch anything).<br />

<br />

I'm using a borrowed USB keyboard to type this. No clicking, no distortion, no crazy latency spikes. The Cubasis test shows sync is maintained perfectly even if I type like the dickens while it's running.<br />

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I'm obviously exceedingly happy it was such a simple solution. I get to hold onto my 1212m after all!

This is an amazing but true story. The interaction of a keyboard, PS2 port, whatever, created a problem. Somewhere someone else may have reported a similar problem, so it always pays to Bing or Google even the weirdest symptoms.<br />

<br />

Who knows?

If you look at the telemetry for Windows crashes, turns out roughly 50% are caused by nVidia drivers. Hmm. Wonder what part of the computer they're controlling? Then about 40% are caused by ATI drivers (notice we're up to 90% already). And about 5% are caused by Intel drivers (now 95%).<br />

<br />

All other causes of BSOD are about 5% of the total. Fortunately BSOD is a very rare occurrence these days, despite what moron fanboys regurgitate, but if it's happening to you because of an audio driver, that's probably not much consolation <br />

<br />

I suspect that if you looked at similar data for Mac kernel panics, you'd seem something similar. Does anyone have data on this?<br />

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After all, the screen is about the only component of the computer that's always in use, every CPU cycle...

I had a similar problem as the previous poster had from a PS/2 keyboard, however, with the help of the dpc latency checker ( http://www.thesycon.de/dpclat/dpclat.exe ), I was able to identify the source of the problem with ASIO dropouts and latency spikes on my Lynx aes16e card: it was conflict with my wireless adapter (DWA-552), whose Windows 7 drivers are evidently poorly behaved.<br />

I resolved this conflict by disabling the wirelss card, but for now I've rolled back to Vista because IMHO the beta Lynx drivers sound better on Vista than on Win7. Maybe by the time they come out in the final release this will be resolved. I still have Win7 on all my other (non-media server) computers, it's a great OS but with a few teething pains....

I installed my DAC1 in USB mode, set it as default device and everything sounds OK.<br />

Juli@ only works in ASIO mode inside the players, the driver is broken.<br />

XXHighEnd works with DAC1 USB in Mode#2 only.<br />

J.River can't play WASAPI with the DAC1 USB.

Matias,<br />

<br />

Are you not able to get J. River MC to play with Wasapi? Can you get it to play with Direct Sound? How do you like the SQ using Windows 7 as compared to XP or Vista please?<br />

<br />

Liz

Matias,<br />

<br />

I am the most sorry about gmail not being allowed; otherwise the Russian spammers are all over. You can try any other account though.<br />

<br />

I feel this is not the place to work out your connection, but when the Benchmark doesn't play WASAPI on JRiver, I guess it needs a "DAC Needs" setting of 24 bits (and a "DAC Is" of 24/96), but, when USB connected. When this indeed works like that, connecting it SPDIF through the Juli@ would be an interesting combination because now the Juli@ needs to output 24 bits of which I currently don't know whether it can do that (meaning : it will probably be 32).<br />

<br />

If you don't think it is too much trouble please try to get another account and I'll help you out till I drop dead. No obligations.<br />

<br />

Peter

@Wonders:<br />

<br />

I did Google the heck out of the issue, but came up blank. Got some useful info. from one of my IT colleagues at work, though. <br />

<br />

After I solved the problem, somebody pointed out that perhaps it's a bandwidth or priority issue between USB and PS2 ports. Like you say...who knows? It's still somewhat of a mystery to me.

What machine and its specs are you using for the Win7 install?<br />

Was the install fresh or upgrade? I read from Microsoft that XP installs can't be upgraded to 7, although Vista to Win 7 is OK with some drama about digital river purchases.<br />

How do you measure bit perfect output?

I'm awaiting my copy, should arrive next week..<br />

<br />

However, I'm a bit surprised I couldn't find foobar among all the posts here. Perhaps it works so well that noone had any issues to report? (Yet?)<br />

<br />

Well, perhaps I'm among the list of people with problems as of next week.<br />

<br />