Rocky Mountain Audiofest 2009 Computer Audio Seminar

If you bring the tomatoes I'll bring a Sledge-O-Matic courtesy of Gallagher :~)

What does Nordost have to do with computer audio?

Roy Gregory use to be the editor fof HiFi+ magazine but stepped down to become a reviewer for the mag and to go on to Nordost payroll.<br />

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Mark

I looked at the back issues of HiFi+ magazine, and see nothing to qualify Roy Gregory as a member of this panel.<br />

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I guess he'll be telling the attendees how important it is to use hiend digital cables.

I ask, because I missed seeing your report on good things from the Symposium.<br />

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Cheers<br />

Frank

Hi Frank - I certainly will be reporting from RMAF. Plus, I should have my Symposium article published this evening :~)

Gang,<br />

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Also stop in our suite at 9007 for some cool news.<br />

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Thanks<br />

Gordon

Gordon, I look forward to meeting you.<br />

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Jeff

If the "cool news" is a USB to SPDIF converter, will it output on RCA, BNC or AES/EBU?<br />

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Found the answer over on the RMAF Site:<br />

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Manufacturer: Wavelength Audio <br />

The WaveLink is an Asynchronous USB to SPDIF Converter. To keep noise and jitter low it uses a rechargeable Lithium ION battery to power these devices. Capable of 24/96 shipped with a Nirvana Audio T0 BNC-BNC cable and a BNC to RCA converter. <br />

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...is rather more aware of the state of the computer audio art than you give him credit. Unfortunately, as editor (and now as contributor) to Hi-Fi+, he is bound by the tastes and demands of the readership. As am I.<br />

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I took over the editorship earlier this year with clear designs to further the understanding of computer audio in Hi-Fi+'s readership. To that end, my first issue featured reviews of the Benchmark DAC1 Pre and the HRT Streamer and Streamer+ (great products, lousy name... what's next, the Hot Flush power supply?). The second issue I edited discussed Spotify in an editorial and there was a review of the Naim HDX. After that – nothing. Why?<br />

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Because I think the only way I could get a worse reaction from a crowd would be to lay on a bull-fight as entertainment at a Hindu wedding. A subsequent reader survey has shown interest in computer audio in the readership is currently way below multichannel music – and that in a country where living space is at such a premium that even multichannel home theater struggles to justify its existence, where multichannel music is a subset of a minority interest and where multichannel SACD players are functionally non-existent.<br />

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This poses the same problem for me as Roy faced. Sales of CDs and CD players are in decline. People are turning to their computers as music servers and to download music. And mentioning this in the pages of Hi-Fi+ has, until recently, ended up with the writer being likened to Benedict Arnold, Vidkun Quisling and William 'Lord Haw-Haw' Joyce. As it stands, the seemingly typical response to suggestions of music servers replacing CD in the rank-and-file Hi-Fi+ readership is to say "time to dust off the record player, then". Remarkably, that's a major improvement – a year ago, such suggestions would be met with "when you cross the road, don't bother looking!"<br />

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Right now, I have to consider computer audio as an occasional feature in the magazine, then a regular one. This is slow progress, but it is progress. And it was also progress begun under Roy's tenure as editor.<br />

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Edit: I forgot to mention, I will be attending this seminar (as well as the show itself), but as a photographer/journalist for RMAF and AVGuide. That's different from a photo-journalist by a factor of about five bullet holes. I'll try not to heckle. See you there!

Hi Alan - Thanks for the post. Some interesting information. See you at RMAF :~)

Hi Alan - Thanks for the post. Some interesting information. See you at RMAF :~)

Chris,<br />

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I hope someone asks Mr. Skinas about what he envisions as the future of SACD and DSD in an increasingly "computer audiophile" world of music servers and high res downloads, which are pretty much entirely PCM. As far as I can tell, SACD and DSD unfortunately have no role in a computer based audio system.

Based on the RMAF forum schedule, it seems that Mr. Gregory's main focus will be promoting Nordost cables.<br />

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If he's so more aware of the state of the computer audio art than I give him credit, please direct me to any reviews he's done of PC audio<br />

or any digital playback equipment.<br />

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Having a paid Nordost cable employee on your reviewing staff is a joke. <br />

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Are Roy and J.Valin rooming together at RMAF? Will there be some<br />

"special price" Nordost cable deals in the parking lot after the show?<br />

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You've taken over the helm of a sinking ship. <br />

AFAIK, Roy has not published any reviews on PC audio. Aside from a couple of DAC reviews and a feature or two, neither have I. The same applies pretty much across the board among UK reviewers, including those who haven't used physical CDs in years. <br />

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Sadly, it seems, many of the readers of audio magazines in the UK are in a comfort zone that predates the computer audiophile revolution. Even a gentle nudge in that direction promoted a strong antagonistic reaction from readers. As I mentioned earlier, that is slowly moving to 'resigned acceptance' and then just 'acceptance'. The problem I face (as Roy did before me and I suspect many other UK editors and writers also face) is that if you announce you dropped CD or SACD as a medium too early, all your credibility is effectively shot by people who will not follow your lead for dogmatic reasons, and nothing more.<br />

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This is why when I wrote a DAC group test (for a rival magazine) about 18 months ago, the introduction was filled with discussions about how the computer revolution was changing the market and how because of that DACs were fashionable again and featured USB ports... but the reviews themselves treated the computer side of the product performance as perfunctory. <br />

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I suspect there's a big coming out party in 2010.<br />

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As to Roy's position within Nordost affecting his position as reviewer, I have laid my cards on the table about this. Roy's Hi-Fi+ writing is effectively now a Nordost-Free-Zone. He can still write about products, but he cannot write about anything Nordost-related, or anything that is a rival to a Nordost product. Such accommodations are not without precedent in the UK reviewing community, but I prefer these things to be out in the open where possible. <br />

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Personally, I don't think I've taken over the helm of a sinking ship. But it would be more fun if I had! I've taken over the helm of a sinking ship that's on fire and being chased by torpedo boats filled with machine gun toting evil-looking henchmen before. Several times. I only had to jump clear once or twice, and usually with my knife between my teeth and revenge on my mind.

Im writing to you as a member and not a business and thinking of attending the show as such! Have you thought of some kind of event for all the CA members to get together and hang out as a group?<br />

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Jesus R

We will be playing DSD and DXD material from a Pyramix workstation utilizing DAD AX24, EMM Labs and Playback Designs converters. We'll be in the Atrium Rm 433 featuring FIM and HDtracks hi-rez transfers and remastering. <br />

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Regards,

Bruce,<br />

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I guess my point is that SACD/DSD has been essentially unusable in the context of consumer computer audio, and from what I recall (I was a very early adopter of SACD with a SCD-1--still have it and use it, and have several hundred SACDs) was marketed to the record labels in the beginning of it's introduction as such as a way to combat Internet piracy (you can't rip it if you can't read it). I'm sure playing DXD master files from a professional workstation sounds wonderful, but that's not really a consumer level option either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this accurately states the current situation with regards to SACD/DSD (note that I'm referring to the DSD layer; obviously with the Redbook layer of a hybrid you can essentially treat it that the same as a regular CD).<br />

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1. There are no computer drives that play the DSD layer of a SACD, and apparently Sony has previously stated there never will be.<br />

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2. There are no DSD downloads except for a smattering of files from an obscure Norwegian label with even more obscure artists, and very limited options to play these on a computer (some WMP plugin the converts to PCM, which makes DSD purists gasp and leaves Mac users--though I'm mostly a PC/Linux guy--out in the cold, plus I think some very specific Sony VAIO desktops).<br />

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3 Aside from very few--and generally proprietary--options, there are virtually no audiophile transports that output, and no audiophile DACs that accept, DSD. It seems like this could potentially be solved with HDMI, as that is being used in mass market multidisc players and receivers to transmit DSD in some cases, but from what I hear the HDMI licensing costs are simply too high for most audiophile companies, hence I don't believe there are any audiophile DACs that support HDMI at this time (excepting PS Audio's proprietary I2S connection, which doesn't use any of the HDMI encryption licenses and therefore doesn't have the stiff licensing payments).<br />

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So I guess my question to Mr. Skinas would be, given the above (and again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), what future role will SACD and/or DSD play in the context of an audiophile computer audio system? Unless something dramatically changes, I don't really see if playing any role unfortunately.

You are right... SACD is not a viable format. But... you are incorrect in your assumption that DSD is in the same boat. <br />

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1. There are several audiophile units that will pass a direct DSD signal. These are by EMM labs, Playback Designs and dCS. We use these units to "rip" the DSD layer off of SACD. We are contacted by labels around the world to retrieve the DSD layer from their SACD's and use these units. We will be showing the procedure for this at RMAF.<br />

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2. We get DSD files to master 2-3 times a week from studios that have dumped their 2-channel mixdowns to the Korg MR1000/2000s and Tascam DV-RA1000 units. There are also a number of audiophiles doing needle drops with these recorders. You can also load DSD files onto these players and listen in their native format. The Korg units come with AudioGate software that will burn a DSD disc that is playable on several SACD players.<br />

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3. We have thousands of DSD files that are available to the labels just as soon as internet bandwidth becomes available and that they want to offer them. <br />

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4. Stay tuned for an announcement that DSD and DXD files will be available for download from a label that I'm working with now.<br />

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Hopefully I've shed some light on DSD and it will become more available to the masses as time goes on. <br />

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Regards,

Gang,<br />

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DSD was a marketing move by Sony and Philips to make money. The CD had run it's course and they both needed some new income. They just did not look at the maketplace well enough before coming up with it.<br />

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All the Sony tools for DSD mastering use PCM as their basis.<br />

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The problem for computer audiophiles is not if they could get the DSD files but merely what to do with them ounce they have them???<br />

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In the end anyone could write a DSD->PCM converter and this would fix the problem.<br />

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Thanks<br />

Gordon

The Audiogate software that came with my KorgMR-1000 converts the DSD recordings I make from vinyl to PCM. I archive the DSD after converting to AIFF 24/176. <br />

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Looking forward to RMAF and meeting some of you.

Bruce,<br />

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I looked for "Atrium 433" in the RMAF Exhibitor list. The only reference I could find to a room 433 is "Marriott 4th Floor", "433", which is the Usher Audio/Musikmatters, JPS Labs, Stillpoints, Power Modules room. Is this the room you will be in?<br />

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James

Yup... that's the one. Our studio is completely wired with JPS Labs cables and Joe asked us to play music that was mastered on his cables. <br />

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Regards,

Bruce,<br />

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First of all, let me say that I appreciate your work and have purchased some of the HDTracks files you've worked on, oftentimes of SACDs I already own just so I can listen to something higher res on my computer audio setup. I guess I just have a different perception of DSD as someone on the consumer side of things.<br />

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I'm aware of the products you mention (which I sort of eluded to in my post but didn't directly name, and I've heard the Meitner and dCS stack), but as I see it there's no momentum at all in the audiophile marketplace towards supporting DSD, either in the traditional standalone digital market or especially the computer audiophile market. EMM and dCS are companies that have been doing this for 5+ years; there hasn't been any new entrants offering DSD input/output since then (Playback Designs was started by a designer who defected from EMM Labs, so to me that really doesn't entirely count as a new company supporting it; I thought they only had a one box player anyways but you'd know better than I). SACD/DSD has been around for 10 years at this point, and I think by any measure it's on it's downslope. Output of DSD is pretty much the same handful of companies that made a heavy investment in SACD at the beginning, and by companies that also were heavily involved on the pro side with DSD--where are all the other high end digital companies like Ayre, Boulder, Goldmund, Linn, MBL, Spectral, Wadia (though I believe they stated they are developing one with their flagship 9 series but it's been heavily delayed), Weiss, etc.? And there's no interoperability...what if I prefer the EMM Labs transport to the dCS transport, but want to use the Scarlatti DAC? I'm out of luck because each company's approach is proprietary and only works with their counterpart product. HDMI seems to be a viable solution for this, as evidenced by mainstream companies like Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo, etc. using it to pass DSD, but apparently the HDMI licensing costs are just too high for the low volume audiophile market. And that's just the dismal situation on the DAC/transport side of the equation; it's even worse on the computer side. There's a DSD-to-PCM WMP plugin, but I doubt very many serious computer audiophiles are using WMP as their audio player of choice.<br />

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While I'm glad you're doing DSD downloads for another label, that makes a grand total of 2 labels. I guess what I'm wondering is if DSD files will ever be something you can download and actually have a decent chance of playing across various computer or digital audio platforms. As you said, there is a decent library of SACDs that presumably have DSD or DXD master files, or it appears you have a mechanism to rip from a SACD as well. But if a DSD download is something that I have to buy a DSD recorder like the Korg or Tascam to burn discs to play on a SACD player, I might as well just buy the SACD. That kinda defeats one of the main reasons why people have music servers in the first place--they're trying to avoid having to mess around with physical media for every listening session. While I'd love to have SACD/DSD have some sort of role in the future regarding that, it doesn't appear it will.

1. It has been acknowledged by many that DVD-A format is dead and SACD is dying. <br />

2. Both formats sound great and many audiophiles sincerely believe that these formats sound superior to Redbook CDs.<br />

3. Available music on DVD-A and SACD is very limited.<br />

4. SACD is a proprietary format.<br />

5. Both DVD-A and SACD formats are not very conducive to computer audio, especially compared to RDBK CDs and the RDBK layer of Hybrid SACDs.<br />

6. When it comes to optical discs for audio, the likely future is still Redbook CDs and perhaps Blu-ray for higher resolutions. Obviously there is nothing DVD-A offers that Blu-ray cannot provide. And the sonic differences between DVD-A, SACD, and Blu-ray are greatly diminished compared to the lower resolution formats such as Redbook, which makes the arguments over sonic superiority very minor.<br />

7. DVD-As is more appealing to home theater aficionados since it provides video content and often allows changes in listener and viewing positions from the audience to the stage. SACD does not have these capabilities.<br />

8. IME the success rate for ripping DVD-As is around 80%. One burden is that the metadata has to be entered manually.<br />

9. IMO SACDs have a characteristic uniform sound of being very smooth and detailed. DVD-As do not have a characteristic sound among genres of music and generally sound more dynamic than SACDs. Thus SACDs may be better sounding than DVD-As within genres of music but the bass and treble of different SACDs tend to sound alike, which can sometimes be boring.<br />

10. High rez downloads and audio data disks such as HRx are generally the sonic equivalent to DVD-A, SACD or Blu-ray. If the playing field is level with respect to price, high rez downloads and audio data disks are the preferred choice of computer audiophiles.<br />

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Perhaps the DVD-A, SACD and DSD discussions should be a separate thread. However all these posts will be just noise once the RMAF starts. <br />

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Please "Let the (RMAF) games begin" and spare me the debates.<br />