The futur of computer Hi Fi?

[Chris M.]

That was nothing. If I went through the whole process, you'd think I was insane. But analog has enjoyed a renaissance over the last 15 years. There's a turntable system from Australia that goes for $150,000. My rig was only 14K. and I've yet to hear a digital based system that sounded better. My dealer lent me a $12,000 Mark Levinson single box CD player with a pair of $6000 Transparent Premium balanced interconnects. The Levinson had it own internal volume control so I connected it straight to my Pass Aleph 5 power amp. To this day, it's the best sounding digital I've ever heard. But it didn't touch my analog rig.

 

If vinyl was for old fashoned quirky obsessive-compulsives, why is it now so popular? Keep in mid most turntable systems are not at all complicated. But at the level I was at, yeah it could be meddening, but it was always worth it.

 

[ssgp2]

I like the idea of colouring the music by software instead of hardware.

 

If the amplifier and speakers have a wide range of reproduction that allows a high transparency, it would allow me to adjust the music to my room, type of music, type of recording, etc.

 

Basically, to tune the music to my preference without having to exchange/test hardware on a regular basis.

 

After reading many post on which amps for what speaker, what cables, etc.

I find myself drawn to the simplicity of active speakers like the Adam Tensor Gamma, plug in a good DAC and have a good software to complement the speakers control.

 

 

 

 

[howlingfeedback]

Funny how this topic has strayed into the vinyl V Digi world,

 

I don't think no soul on earth can say which is better, I have both plastic records and Wav and high rez recordings I don't play CD's at all.

 

I say Vinyl has one type of sound, Wav files another I prefere the Computer based files, but I can't say its better but it sounds very good to me, 24bit 96khz files on the other hand blow the socks off CD to my ears, as mentioned I have a turtable a CD player all good equipment, I just dont use the table or cdplayer at all, I love just playing albums back to back without having to move an inch, well just to have a sip on some tea.

 

The argument rages on this v that, but if you injoy your sound what's the problem, just injoy.

 

[barrows]

There is no question that current day digital when properly implemented, is more accurate than even the best vinyl playback. Of course tape playback, when perfect (2nd generation tapes, perfectly aligned tape player, tapes that have been played only a few times, etc) can probably beat both, but only under perfect circumstances, which will not be possible for real world playback.

Yes, I have heard excellent vinyl rigs... They sound wonderful.

The Future: computer based playback will continue to take over, and downloading music will come of age in the next five years, with music lovers able to download music at their choice of resolutions. Mainstream consumer audio will mostly move to network based players (and whole house audio)-but the audiophile world will consist of server and networked based players. External DACs will be used, but computer based servers will become the hubs of future audiophile systems. Vinyl playback will remain, but the phono stages of the future will be digital, implementing RIAA curves in software in the digital domain. The phono stages will output 32 bit/352.8 kHz digital to the server, virtually eliminating audible effects of digital filters. Class D amplifiers will be advanced enough to outperform traditional SS amps in every way, and only tube based amps will remain as a tweaky alternative to Class D. Servers will incorporate an optical based digital output for connecting to the (asynchronous) DAC.

Room correction will be applied in the server, and some audiophiles will implement cross overs in software as well, utilising multi channel DACs. Speaker designers will design speakers with no cross over, but will be involved in the software design of cross overs to perfect them-this will allow speaker designers to offer upgrades via software, and to model crossovers for specific room/speaker situations via the internet.

True high end sound will still cost a bundle, as speaker expense will not decrease, but there will be some performance/value savings in the class D amplifier breakthrough.

 

[Mark Powell]

I have been playing with computer audio for only six weeks, but with the help of this forum there are no configuration mistakes in my setup. I am using Windows 7, J River, WASAPI Event Style output mode, CDs ripped to WAVs using EAC, and a few hi res downloads. The hardware is not the best (or at least not the most expensive) but:

 

This morning, the first time for months, I played a 'record'. An old Boney_M LP, 'Night Flight to Venus' bought when I was a teenager. On this - Koetsu Black (purchased in a mad moment), SME IV arm, standard Technics SL1200 with no 'upgrades', and a 400 dollar phone amp.

 

It totally blows the socks off my computer set up. Totally. Attack? Punch? Involvement? I can't take it off!

 

In 1983 or thereabouts I purchased the very first CD player. The original Philips. I also purchased the Simon and Garfunkel 'Bridge over Troubled Water' CD. I also had the vinyl version. My first play ever of the CD player and I thought 'There is something missing.'

 

Today I found that all over again.

 

Purely my personal experience. Your mileage may be different.

 

[ssgp2]

I sent an email to ADAM Audio to ask if they were considering an interface to calibrate the speakers via Bluetooth or WiFi.

 

Something like the equalizer on ITune would make it easier and faster to evaluate different sound for all genre of music.

 

[Mark Powell]

I think you are totally wrong about phono amps. Just an aside, not my main concern - what's the advantage in doing the RIAA curve 'accurately' in digital? it's only a rough approximation to start with. Cartridge response even more so. Although digital might allow to to adjust it to your taste of course. But then why buy a 6000 dollar cartridge if you are going to meddle with its performance?

 

Digital amps? I have heard good reports of the Nu Force ones. The Audio Research ones are rubbish. Get better ones in a dime store. I am not being nasty - am seriously considering an Audio Research amp. In fact I so far delayed my amp purchase for three weeks so I can hear some. Not a digital one though.

 

Have you heard a good vinyl (and anything else for that matter) setup through a good SET? Perhaps such is what us 'audiophiles' will move towards. Not the vinyl though. The whole digital side will be purchased by the people who currently use iPods, not the audiophiles.

 

Meridian/Sooloos do lots of all digital stuff, including built in crossovers. It certainly won't please an 'audiophile'.

 

[audiozorro]

Nowadays the real world of recorded music and audio is analog and digital, so direct your efforts towards achieving the best of both.

 

There is good and bad stuff in either camp and all we need to do is avoid the bad stuff and seek out the good stuff.

 

Is it live or is it Memorex?

 

Vinyl played from the best turntable setup or DSD128 music digitized from the best turntable setup is indistinguishable. Some have claimed that 24/192 sounds almost as good and DXD sounds better.

 

I guarantee that if you love your vinyl, you will also love your digitized vinyl recorded in these formats.

 

 

[barrows]

"I think you are totally wrong about phono amps. Just an aside, not my main concern - what's the advantage in doing the RIAA curve 'accurately' in digital? it's only a rough approximation to start with. Cartridge response even more so. Although digital might allow to to adjust it to your taste of course. But then why buy a 6000 dollar cartridge if you are going to meddle with its performance?"

 

RIAA equalisation is done in every phono preamp, usually by passive EQ involving capacitors and resistors. No matter what, applying the correction curve this way increases distortions and noise, as caps and resistors are lossy components. By applying the curve in the digital domain, assuming adequate word length and sample rate (note I said 32/352.8 in my post) all audible losses would be eliminated. Additionally, this approach gives one the advantage of using different RIAA curves. Anyone who is really into vinyl should be aware that albums have not been encoded with totally consistant RIAA curves, my goal would not be to change the sound, my goal would be to apply an accurate RIAA curve which matches the original curve used during cutting. Currently there are traditional phono preamps which offer alternative curves-the software approach just allows this EQ to be applied more accurately without additional distortion and noise. Many people with very, very good vinyl setups have digitised vinyl playback at 24/192 and reported that it is indistinguishable from playing the album directly. Note that my prediction is based on a much higher data rate, which with well designed converters will be transparent to the source. In fact, this set up, would outperform an anlog phono stage as the distortions inherent in the RIAA EQ would be eliminated.

 

"Digital amps? I have heard good reports of the Nu Force ones. The Audio Research ones are rubbish. Get better ones in a dime store. I am not being nasty - am seriously considering an Audio Research amp. In fact I so far delayed my amp purchase for three weeks so I can hear some. Not a digital one though."

 

Class D amps are not "digital", this is a common misconception. In reality, they are properly described as analog amps with a switching output stage. My prediction is that class D amps will soon (not that they do now, it is a prediction for the future) outperform all traditional solid state amps. Currently, the best I have heard are the Hypex based amps from brilliant engineer Bruno Putzeys-these sound very, very good; but still not as good as the best solid state to my ears. He has a new design which will be available in 2012-we shall see how those stack up. I am not a fan of the NuForce amps.

 

"Have you heard a good vinyl (and anything else for that matter) setup through a good SET? Perhaps such is what us 'audiophiles' will move towards. Not the vinyl though. The whole digital side will be purchased by the people who currently use iPods, not the audiophiles."

 

Yes. Not a fan of SET. My feeling is that SET sounds great on non complex music, especially traditional audiophile fare such as girl singing in a jazz setting. On orchestral music with complex music, or complex rock, or big band jazz, the SET sound generally falls apart and gets quite congested.

I have been an audiophile since the late 70s, have worked in the industry, and have listened to many, many high end setups over the years. You might note that my prediction included tube amps, just that class D amps would replace traditional solid state amps.

 

Meridian/Sooloos do lots of all digital stuff, including built in crossovers. It certainly won't please an 'audiophile'.

 

Your opinion of Meridian is your own, and open for discussion, I have only heard it briefly, and not enough to ever formulate an opinion. Once again my prediction is for the future, you seem to be talking about the present (and perhaps are stuck in the past). In any case, there some audiophiles who are hearing some of the "future" now, including bi/tri-amp speaker set ups with cross overs done in software. Just like the RIAA EQ, doing x-over in software allows one to eliminate the distortions and noise caused by the lossy components (inductors, capacitors, and resistors) in the traditional passive x-over network, and allows more flexibility and accuracy in x-over design. The alternative to this would be some kind of full range single driver approach, perhaps some kind of plasma driver, but this is very, very far off technically. Current wideband drivers are quite compromised at the frequency extremes, and in output level.

 

Your objections to digital sound are understandable, as CD, at 16/44.1 is very compromised. My opinion is that at high sample rates and bit depths, the compromises inherent in Red Book digital are eliminated, as any artifacts and noise become so low in level and high in frequency, that they can be entirely filtered out by filters which do not intrude on the audible bandwidth in any way, inherently, 32/352.8 with well designed converters will be transparent to the source-it could be argued that even 24/192 can be engineered to be entirely transparent, but in order to accommodate X-over and EQ, having the extra bit depth of 32 (or even 64 in the realm of the computer) would be nice.

 

 

 

[dummy]

When will I meet THE one? How about my health? Any chances I'll win the lottery???

 

;-)

 

It's good to know the world's NOT coming to an end after all in 2012...

 

 

 

[Brian A]

If we're back into the prognostication game, here is my kindling for the fire ...

 

Seems to me this "resolution thing" will be resolved. That is, with a bit more work (and data density), a digital file will sound as good as black vinyl record. The favorable RIAA "colorations" that people are claiming they like will someday be available as add-ins, just the way that Kodachrome or Fujichrome "filters" are available for Adobe Photoshop. Check-box your ADC XLM Mk2 add-in and suddenly you're back to 1978.

 

As for tubes vs solid-state, I would say tubes are back to stay. I've heard it said that a tube design can get the same sound as a top-end solid state design for less than 1/5 the cost. Said the other way, solid-state can sound as good as tubes, but it costs a lot of money. Cheapskates like me won't cough up the big bucks and will stick with high opex tubes.

 

Last, it is my opinion that the world will end on November 4, 2011. (... wait a minute, that's next week!) Cancel that.

 

[Mark Powell]

Yes. Even now it would be interesting to see the reception a digital phono amp receives. Noise levels may, (and only may, not will) be unimportant as so much comes from the mechanical processes involved in 'reading' the vinyl disc. More digital scope in the studio recording process though.

 

I am aware that the amps are not truly digital. My other interest is radio controlled model planes, and they have been using PWM, both to modulate the (analogue) carrier, 35Mhz or 2.4Ghz in Europe, and to position the servos, for forty years plus. A very few use true digital coding (basically the old IBM SDLC) to modulate the carrier. All call their radios 'digital', however.

 

Sets. I have heard many say what you do. An equal number say that nothing else is worth listening to at all. Their taste in music may be as odd as their choice in amplifiers. Currently I have no personal experience, but much curiosity. I am presently in the happy position of having sufficient assets 'burning a hole in my pocket' to have a wide choice. I will very much bear in mind what you say about 'complicated' music. I was set on Naim (a 'safe and cosy' choice here in the UK) and they are VERY good indeed. But I lean to being more adventurous. And take a big enough step to make a REAL difference. I don't think there are many UK manufacturers who can do that. Naim is one of the very few. My speakers are good.

 

There are two large mid and high end dealers near me. My comments about Audio Research 'digital' amps may seem unfair, but I have heard one, at some length. He has got three in stock. The regular A R amps go out of the door so quickly that getting a demo depends on luck.

 

Regards.

 

[f1eng]

Pro manufacturers of ADC/DACs and the software usually supply various "filters" in the software with transfer functions emulating a host of traditional studio kit, so reverb can be entirely digital or emulating one of the old analogue devices. Various valve amplifiers can be emulated too.

I am not sure it would be easy to emulate a turntable since the reverberation (for want of a better word) depends on so many parameters, including but not exclusively, where and how it is mounted relative to the loudspeakers. The room acoustics. The spectrum of arm resonances and the extent to which they are excited by the cartridge (mainly depending of the cantilever damping). The entire mechanical design of the turntable, including and modes which may excite the arm at its mounting.

When I worked in the R&D department at Garrard I did try to look into all the things effecting the output from a turntable but it was too complicated. Mounted on a normal domestic table pretty well every turntable picked up the traffic running along the road outside 4 stories down and across a carpark...

Most of the warmth and excitement heard from a turntable is reverberation being added by the turntable, not something on the record. If you want to listen to this for yourself try mounting the turntable in a different room to the music, and whilst the turntable mechanical aspects will not be eliminated the absence of the reverberation added by the mechanical and acoustic music signal being time-delay added to the signal mean the sound will be more flat and lifeless.

These additions are around 20-30dB down on the original signal and so are not immediately obvious but certainly make a big change to the sound.

A terrific lot of people love this change.

I have been an amateur recordist for 40 years. I started out reel-to-reel and went via DAT to a Metric Halo ADC/DAC. The transparency has improved with each step. Super recordings can be made each way, but the analogue and DAT recorders needed much more care in getting levels perfect.

 

[Mark Powell]

I just use good quality headphones to test, it's simpler.

 

Initially my approach was 'Shove it on the nearest shelf or table and switch it on'. All my careful efforts with location, granite slabs, different feet, levelling, different arms, checking with an alignment protractor, and so on seem to degrade the performance rather than improve it!

 

I have a laptop used for audio, positioned so I can see the screen while using the top of a speaker to slide the mouse about on. The turntable's position is governed purely so as not to interfere with that! Sounds really good.

 

The laptop sits on top of a 5000 dollar Naim CD player who's only purpose since I got into computer audio is to raise the laptop to a convenient height. Shame that.

 

Regards

 

 

 

[f1eng]

Quoting Mark Powell:

"Initially my approach was 'Shove it on the nearest shelf or table and switch it on'. All my careful efforts with location, granite slabs, different feet, levelling, different arms, checking with an alignment protractor, and so on seem to degrade the performance rather than improve it!"

 

 

The measures you took may well have made the vinyl system more high fidelity, even if you did not prefer the sound it made. As has been written on this and other fora frequently few of us have knowledge of the original sound so can't judge whether a system is a transparent, i.e. high fidelity, system or just makes a sound we like.

I like vinyl but my knowledge of it makes me aware of all the ways the mechanics are changing the sound.

 

Have you seen this blog, which is very enlightening on the subject of enjoyable versus accurate sound in amplifiers.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/Rational-audioa-subjectivist-journey

 

cheers

Frank