"Turning your AppleTV into a high-quality music server, without breaking the bank"

[Joebah]

Article here: http://www.thedailyswarm.com/swarm/sonic-satori-mini-system-grows-and-turning-your-appletv-music-server/

 

Article mentions Pop Pulse 1796 MKII DAC...

 

Also short blurb on PeachTree Music Box...

 

 

 

[HiFiInsider]

I have been thinking of jailbreaking my ATV to allow it to play connected NAS files. Since the ATV is a strip down iOS computer, I wonder if it would sound better than my Mac Mini set up. Anyone tried this?

 

[mikemercer]

Thanks for sharing my article!

A friend just found it here.

 

And - I have tried it (Mac mini vs. using the AppleTV that way) - IMO - as system synergy is EVERYTHING, and we all have different systems, I found the AppleTV/DAC combo to be the best.

 

I've also got this prototype device (like a Sonicweld Diverter) that takes the optical output of my AppleTV, handles jitter, and gives me an SPDIF output from the device!! I'm loving it so far.

 

Question: And I'm asking on the manufacturers part - Do you think there would be a market for this device (built for the AppleTV)??

 

[kehere]

Personally I think there is a market for a jitter reducer but don't stop at apple tv, would like to have one for Sonos, Squeezebox..

 

[mikemercer]

Right on! Thanks for that input. I've used the prototype device on my Sonos ZP-90 player - and it makes a HUGE difference across the frequency spectrum (not just in dynamics and soundstaging, things like this - but timbre).

 

I think its VERY smart that Sonos provide the digital outputs on their players

 

[dave_kiwi]

doing exactly the same thing with the ATV2 here on CA.

 

For my DAC I use a el cheapo Fii0 D3, but have plans to upgrade to a Schitt Bifrost. Cannot complain about the sound - more than listenable -- and if I want super critical listening then I either use my macbook, or just recently, iPad with FLAC PLAYER for HiRez stuff.

 

Haven't tried the power cord "thingy" yet ---- would be nice to demo first before committing but don't think that would be possible here in Singapore.

 

[kehere]

Hi Mike Mercer, any clues as to who built the prototype??

 

[harmonica2]

I'm curious about the power cord mentioned in the article. Has anyone else's fidelity improved after replacing the power cord on their ATV2 or ATV3?

 

[wgscott]

I have an ATV2 hooked up via optical to a (1st gen) Zeppelin for a bedroom system. There is certainly nothing wrong with it.

 

I think it would be a slight overstatement to call it a high quality music server, since it appears to resample everything to 48kHz.

 

I have a second ATV2 attached via optical to my Nova and via HDMI to my Marantz 1402 and TV. It is jailbroken, and although there are claims that XBMC, for example, can play music at higher res. I haven't been able to get it to work.

 

If you aren't terribly concerned about bit-perfect playback, it is a viable option.

 

Even in the unlikely event that the magic purple power cord did anything, you would have to qestion the wisdom of pimping out an $80 box with a $150 power cord, given its inherent limitations.

 

[souptin]

Here's a trick you may want to try for yourself - google Michael Mercer (the author of the article) and Nordost. Interesting, isn't it?

 

Of course, this doesn't mean he's wrong... But his statement that "he couldn't believe the difference" when he's clearly enough of a believer in Nordost products to have three power cables handy for the reviewed products, plus some interconnects judging by the photo. And, google says, he's close enough to the company to have been their setup man for a show.

 

Reading that back, I appreciate that I sound like a mad Internet stalker bent on google based character assassination... I have never met the guy, I could well be doing him a huge disservice. I'm just sayin', you know?

 

There's a couple of other things I think you have to look at if you really want to see just how high end you can make your apple tv, as well as trying out power tweaking:

 

1 The 48khz only limitation, and whether jail breaking can get around this.

2 Possible benefits of hardwiring the network connection ( it has an ethernet port) instead of using wireless.

3 DACs which offer some protection against the jitter potential of the toslink output - I haven't seen any published measurements, but those of other apple products suggest this may be a weakness. Or you could try the hdmi, which is unexplored territory.

 

Ps - coincidentally I also have an AppleTV 3 connected to a Zep. It has solved the dropouts that plagued my previous airport express setup, although I have lost the nice iTunes dj feature. The 48khz thing doesn't make any difference to my ears in this context, but unless some altruistic company wants to send me some free cables to play with I have no plans to pimp it out.

 

[DavidL]

I couldn't really hear any sound quality difference: while the ATV1 did CDs at 44.1 kHz (rather than 48) the ATV3 has no hard disc so should quieter (electrically and acoustically).

 

About a year ago I upgraded the power cord to one from Russ Andrews; it gave a slight improvement in sound quality:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1541&customer_id=PAA0272044710712XQEXBCVGJOLMNRMJ

 

Far, far more important in terms of the effect on sound quality I found was moving the ATV further away from the DAC, amp etc, by changing from a 1m to a 2m optical digital connection, and adding a mains block to reduce mains-borne RF (Alner-Hamblin MF02):

http://alnerhamblin.com/detailspro.asp?id=1130846678

 

[harmonica2]

Thank you for posting DavidL. You are using the Apple TV with quite an impressive system!

As the Apple TV has an internal power supply (no way to upgrade), cleaning up the electrical current the way you describe make sense to me.

 

[mikemercer]

Wow, You learned alot about me from Google (Jesus, really??). Why not just ask me? If you did I would have told you whatever you want to know.

 

Chris also knows me, knows I pull no punches and one of the things I'm known for is my word and my dedication to helping Hifi grow - which I've been doing since I started at TAS when I was a teenager - and then being lucky enough to work for Arif Mardin at Atlantic Records - so I've learned from great men and

 

I WOULD NEVER DISHONOR THEIR MEMORY by being dishonest!

 

Do I run alot of Nordost cables? YES! I've known Joe Reynolds and the team at Nordost since 1996. They are friends. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I also run Black Cat Cables, Jorma, Furutech, Locus Design, Transparent, and a few other cables. I think other cables are better for certain things, but Nordost is my reference. i'm sorry I don't list all my cables all the time. I'm constantly changing them!

 

and as for "he's close enough to the company to have been their setup man for a show."

 

= YES! I was, I had just been through an accident where I broke six bones, and my wife and I had no health insurance at the time. It was a very low time for us (thanks for bringing that memory back btw) and Joe reached out and let me help as a favor, as a friend! He gave me the boost I needed, and I love him for that.

 

Holy S___t! That's terrible isn't it?

 

Get this: High end audio is a small family, but a global one. It's like the underground dance community (of which I've been a proud member of that tribe since Brooklyn S.T.O.R.M raves of the early 90's) - many of us know each other. It's the way it is.

 

I've also , btw, since had my dear friend implement further upgrades to the AppleTV (like ones suggested here) and they helped with the sonic integrity even further! I would neve pretend to know how to do that myself.

 

and they do far more indeed! no argument here

 

I make no apology for saying what I did about the cable having an impact on the sound in that article. I heard it, and my wife remarked on the change in sound (she's my acid test sometimes, as she has GREAT ears) without ANY solicitation from me! That's how I see sometimes if I'm just imagining it - or if somebody else hears something too.

 

Anway - you don't have to do the silly cyber bulls__t with me. Just ask me! If I don't respond for awhile, or not at all, I assure you it's not because I'm avoiding you.

 

It's because I'm still busy trying to help this industry grow (like what I did w/ this woman on a plane, turning her onto the idea of headphone amps after she asked me about mine - like I mention in my recent Sonic Satori column in The Daily Swarm!! ) or when I spend time responding to readers emails, or the work I do in my 9-5.

 

Here's that link:

http://www.thedailyswarm.com/swarm/sonic-satori-turning-personal-audio-hi-fi-experience/

 

I'm dedicated to this because I love it with everything I have. I'm addicted to music and sound.

 

I walk tall, and I walk proud - and I'm HONORED to have built many long-lasting relationships and friendships in this business. It warms my heart that a friend was there when I needed help (as I never asked for anything before - assumptions are just that btw).

 

Sincerely,

 

Michael Mercer

 

[mikemercer]

I wish I could offer a clue on the prototype device - but hopefully soon he'll be making it, and get one to Chris for review!!

 

[souptin]

My bad. Had I paid more attention to the replies to the topic I would have realised that you were involved in this discussion and addressed you directly. More diplomatically too. Hopefully you can bring yourself to forgive my language.

 

Re: "Cyber bullsh*t" as you put it, frankly I would have searched anyway: It's not exactly difficult, and in the case of your dailyswarm articles you talked about the same manufacturer's cables, with a product link. I thought it reasonable to look for a connection, so thanks for clarifying further. In publishing, it's almost inevitable for editorial people to form links and friendships with manufacturers they like and trust. Whether this is a bad thing or not... no idea. I doubt if the publishing industry would be able to continue in it's current form without the support of manufacturers. Equally I think it's wise for readers to be aware of this, and for journalists and publishers to be open about it.

 

To get back to the point of this topic: I'd argue that the 48khz only limitation of the Apple TV 3 is a major stumbling block in its use as a high quality music server. Whether jailbreaking (much cheaper than hifi power cords btw) can address this should be, imo, an essential part of any discussion.

 

[wgscott]

In fairness, this is a thread in an open discussion forum, not a paid advertisement. The title of the thread includes "without breaking the bank." Therefore it is not entirely unreasonable to question the necessity, and potential for improvement, of adding on anything expensive to a $100 wireless music server/zone player, let alone cables that cost more than the box itself.

 

The power cable that comes with the ATV has a nice external texture and unusual elasticity properties.

 

It is kind of interesting that the article doesn't mention the 48kHz resampling limitation. Might that be because including such a fact would hint that there is a limit to how much a special cable might be able to improve the sound?

 

[harmonica2]

Sorry to state the obvious, but the Apple TVs 48 kHz limit is only a bottleneck for those people who own a lot of hi-res music. For the rest of us, The Apple TV is a fine option.

I would also suggest that we give Mr. Mercer the benefit of the doubt. Clearly he has tried upgrading the power cable on his Apple TV, and we have not. $150 seems expensive, but maybe the improvement in performance is worth it.

[wgscott]

Most music is 44.1 kHz, so it will be resampled to 48kHz. I hear no difference in quality with my ATV2 into my 1st gen Zeppelin, so I am not complaining.

 

The point is, however, that the enhancement tweak provided by the magic cable would have to be less subtle than potential degradation introduced by resampling, in order to counter-balance it.

 

In the unlikely event that the magic cable matters, why not use it on a bit-perfect system, where it would have the best opportunity to yield an improvement.

 

Also, why should the benefit of the doubt be given to an extraordinary claim, when no evidence is provided, and the conflict of interest has already been noted?

[speeddeacon]

I have been trying to decide for sure if I want to put a Mac Mini music server in the rack with my components or stream from it wirelessly using ATV or Sonos. One of the great mysteries is whether the ATV or Sonos would degrade the sound compared to a wired Mac Mini to DAC and whether it would pass the obligatory 24/192 that seems to be the rage right now. As you may or may not know, Wyred4Sound does a reclocking mod for the Sonos that addresses jitter as well as input/output buffers and some other things. They basically replace the board with their own. They will either mod yours or you can buy a modded one directly to them. They do set the clock specifically so you have to choose 48 or 96 or 192 specifically. I've never heard one but I do have Sonos for my whole house system and I like the interface just fine. It also has a lot of options or internet radio etc., in case you aren't familiar with it. You can read about it at http://www.sonos.com and about the W4S at http://www.wyred4sound.com and click Modifications.

 

But, Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio (makers of the much heralded Off Ramp 4), is beginning to manufacture the same sort of reclocker in an outboard box that will work with any of the devices that output via toslink or co-ax. So it would theoretically allow one to reclock the ATV as well as Sonos, squeezebox, etc. since they don't have a USB 2.0 output. And, since it is an outboard unit, it has more versatility than the W4S moded Sonos. There is a discussion with Steve, as well as some info, here:

 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102003.0

 

I don't know Steve and have only exchanged emails with him but I am impressed with his knowledge so don't take this as an advertisement or endorsement, only sharing because we all seem to be in the same place here. As I said, I still haven't decided if I want to go this route and he is already backordered so I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this with you here.

[kehere]

But, Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio (makers of the much heralded Off Ramp 4), is beginning to manufacture the same sort of reclocker in an outboard box that will work with any of the devices that output via toslink or co-ax. So it would theoretically allow one to reclock the ATV as well as Sonos, squeezebox, etc. since they don't have a USB 2.0 output. And, since it is an outboard unit, it has more versatility than the W4S moded Sonos. There is a discussion with Steve, as well as some info, here:

 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=102003.0

 

Thanks for sharing this. Has anyone heard/tested the reclocker from Empirical audio? I'm particularly interested in whether it makes a notable sound improvement to a Sonos.

[harmonica2]

Based on DavidL's post, I picked up a used Power Conditioner, a Tripplite HT7300PC, on Craig's List. It has 4 channels, so I plugged my digital gear in one channel, the DAC in another, and the amp in a "high-current" channel. I pushed the Apple TV and the DAC to opposite sides of a shelf.

I wasn't expecting much, but I'm actually quite impressed with the results. The stereo effect is more pronounced, and overall the sound is more pleasing to me. I don't have a command of the "audiophile vocabulary," so I'm not sure if I'm hearing soundstage, detail, imaging, etc., but it is clearly a step forward.

Once I'm thoroughly familiar with the changes, I suppose my next upgrade will be to a glass TOSlink cable from my current plastic one. Many have commented this makes a difference and it's only $30.

Perhaps after that, I will try the "magic purple power cable" as wgscott calls it.

Wgscott - would you please clarify your last post? It seems that you are saying that the degradation introduced by the upsample to 48khz, which you admit to not being able to hear (nor can DavidL), will be greater than the improvement introduced by the new power cable, which you have never heard. This doesn't make sense. Have you had a relevant experience with these types of upgrades that is coloring your opinion? Thanks!

[wgscott]

Sorry.

 

As far as I know, 44.1 will be re-sampled to 48 kHz. In my case, in which I have this connected to a Zeppelin, I am pretty sure the Zeppelin's DAC will take that resampled 48kHz stream and re-sample it to 44.1 kHz.

 

I don't hear any obvious degradation of the sound quality within the limits of that system, but it is not a high res system. I think if you had a high res system, the first re-sampling might result in audible degradation.

 

The main point is obligatory resampling, a priori, would limit the benefit of bit-perfect playback for anything other than 48kHz. Would the gain from using a different cable be more than the loss due to resampling? The loss due to resampling is one of those things you can measure.

 

The power conditioner is a different story, since it is actually giving you cleaner mains.

[Superdad]

While I greatly appreciate the elegance of AirPlay (in every iOS-device and iTunes on both Win & OS X; ability to sling music and video around the house from/to various sources/targets), the big limitation sound-wise is not just that everything ends up down or upsampled (to 16/44 for Airport Express; to 16/48 for ATV), it is that AirPlay converts everything on the fly to Apple Lossless (ALC).

If it was not for that, I'd be modifying AirPort Express units (the oldest ones) to output USB (Gordon Rankin told me how to do this years ago). Just as sad is the fact that, to my knowledge, none of the s/w "purity players" for OS X (Pure Music, Amarra, BitPerfect, etc.) work with AirPlay.

 

So while I enjoy my ATV2 in the living room with the TV, NAD amp, and mid-size speakers, it can't become the elusive Ethernet audio bridge many of us are wishing for.

[dave_kiwi]

urr - Audirvana Plus works with Airplay in 10.8 and ATV2 .... just select Airplay instead of the DAC you would normally use.

[Superdad]

urr - Audirvana Plus works with Airplay in 10.8 and ATV2 .... just select Airplay instead of the DAC you would normally use.

 

Good to know! When you say to select Airplay instead of the DAC, I assume that you mean via the usual triangle-within-rectangle at the lower-right in iTunes. Is that right? I guess Audirvana gets its hooks into iTunes/CoreAudio in a very different way than Pure Music and others.

That really makes me wonder: Since Apple's Airplay OS routines take over to convert and send the stream out to devices (ATV, AE, or 3rd-party Airplay receivers/speakers), how/when does Audirvana do its magic (memory-play, hog-mode, integer mode, upsampling etc.) when sending audio to Airplay devices? And is that only when Audirvana is in "iTunes integration mode"? I guess you can tell I have never used Audirvana (downloading trial now...).

 

While I am asking questions about it (which don't seem to be addressed on their sparse web site): Is Audirvana's Airplay compatibility only for OS X 10.8 and only with ATV2 (is 10.6 and AE left out?)?

 

Sorry if I am asking questions that you might not know the answers to. Airplay is very locked down with encryption and Apple is a bit hardnosed about it (licensing AP is not cheap). But I would find it exciting if Audirvana has somehow cracked Airplay! It might mean that someone (maybe Audirvana) could work around the downsampling and ALC conversion that has limited the appeal of Airplay devices for audiophiles.