HD Audio bitrate not supported

[arthrodoc]

I posted this over at J River, but thought I post it here in case experts here have an answer:

 

I downloaded (from HD Tracks) what what supposed to be a 96/24 album, but when I go to play it, J River tells me it is 88.2, and says my DAC doesn't support this, and resamples to 48/24, which plays fine (but is not what I paid for!)

 

My DAC (in the Marantz SA8004) is actually supposed to support this bitrate when supplied by SPDIF. 96/24 Does work.

 

I looked into the optical out on my motherboard (gigabyte GA-H67MA-D2H-B3) which uses the Realtek ALC892 chip, which is supposed to support 88.2 as well as 96 and up to 192/24. If I go to the HD Audio control panel, under "default formats" it includes 44.1, 48, 96, 192. That is, leaves out 88.2 and 176.4, even though according to the gigabyte and the Realtek literature, those bitrates should be supported.

 

Is this something others have come across?

 

I have sent info requests to both Realtek and Gigabyte.

 

[bleedink]

I tried to play a 88.2 the other day in JRiver and had the same prob. I was using Boot Camp on a Mini. I believe JRiver itself will support any resolution, but if your sound card in windows doesn't have the right drivers (like mine--88.2 plays fine in OS X.) you are not going to hear a thing!

 

[PeterSt]

Depending a bit on what you refer to as "HD Audio Control Panel", Windows will never show 88.2 or 176.4. This is because it can not RESAMPLE to those rates (while it can to the others mentioned).

 

This doesn't tell much about your actual problem I'm afraid, which will merely be in the realm of HD Audio wanting to play in 24 bits instead of the more common 32 (never mind your DAC will support 24 bits -> it's about what is transported).

 

Out of everything "HD Audio" is the most lousy (kind of) standard around.

The subject is more complicated, because in the end this will be about "Exclusive Mode" playback, while HD Audio *also* just doesn't allow these sample rates. So, "not al all" to begin with, and next "again not at all" because Windows won't resample to these rates in "Shared Mode" playback.

 

Hope this helps you a little (if understandable at all).

Peter

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi arthrodoc - I just had a look at the manual for your Martantz unit and it does support the following:

 

Coax & Toslink

• Linear PCM signals with sampling frequencies of 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz,

48 kHz, 64 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz and 192 kHz can be

input in the unit.

 

USB

• The supported sampling frequencies are 32/44.1/48/96 kHz.

 

 

However, looking at the manual of your motherboard is appears 88.2 is not supported. It's not uncommon for manufactures to skip supporting 88.2 and 176.4.

 

High Definition Audio (HD Audio)

HD Audio includes multiple high quality digital-to-analog converters (DACs) that support 44.1KHz/48KHz/ 96KHz/192KHz sampling rate.

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

Chris just said it more clearly. More to the point.

 

And if you are in bad luck (often the case with laptops), not even 44.1 is supported. Believe it or not.

... But then this all anticipates on the resampling of the OS.

 

Stupids !

 

[arthrodoc]

I'm aware the Marantz is supposed to support it. I'm waiting to hear from them.

 

I didn't think resampling is the issue, since I have it turned off in J river, and with WASAPI it should just send the bitrate of the file. I get an error message saying this bitrate isn't supported, and it offers to turn on the resampling to play the file.

 

The Gigabyte website for this m/b says only that it uses the ALC892 chip, which, if you look at Realtek here:

 

http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=24&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=284

 

Says:

 

All DACs supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate

All ADCs supports 44.1k/48k/96k/192kHz sample rate

Primary 16/20/24-bit SPDIF-OUT supports 32k/44.1k/48k/88.2k/96k/192kHz sample rate

Secondary 16/20/24-bit SPDIF-OUT supports 32k/44.1k/48k/88.2k/96k/192kHz sample rate.

 

The gigabyte manual only mentions bitrate when it's talking about the Realtek driver for the HD Audio: so it's not a hardware limitation, it's presumably the way the driver supports the output.

 

Seems, perhaps naively, to me that if the SPDIF supports output at those rates, it should be available. It shouldn't be going thru a DAC or an ADC from the 88.2/24 file I'm feeding to the SPDIF ...

 

Presumably the driver is not exposing the supported bitrates? Maybe because it expects it would be running the files thru the built it DACs? Doesn't make sense, since the whole point of the spdif interface is to bypass the built-in DAC for a "better" outboard DAC.

 

I tried all the possible J River audio options, but since, when I want to output thru the spdif I have to select the Realtek HD audio driver, seems I can't actually output a (theoretically) supported resolution. Seems to me this isn't a Windows issue, unless I fail to understand something (certainly possible too.)

 

It's not an issue with the USB output, since that becomes a selectable sound device, but the Marantz USB input doesn't accept 88.2 either.

 

Heh ... maybe Realtek will respond with a fix. How likely is that?

 

....

 

Back to HDTracks though: they posted the files as 96/24, but they are actually 88.2. Maybe they'll credit me for the cost.

 

[Miska]

Resampling to 96/24 should be just fine?

 

I'm playing back everything at maximum rate supported by the hardware.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

 

 

Page 89 of the Gigabyte motherboard manual says:

 

High Definition Audio (HD Audio)

HD Audio includes multiple high quality digital-to-analog converters (DACs) that support 44.1KHz/48KHz/ 96KHz/192KHz sampling rate.

 

 

 

What audio device is listed under the Output Mode Settings in J River?

 

 

 

Are you using the drivers supplied by Gigabyte for your motherboard and on-board audio?

 

 

 

What album is it on HDtracks that's mislabeled as 24/96?

 

 

[arthrodoc]

Yes, I have the manual. Like I said, that refers to the driver's (software) capabilities, not the hardware. P 89 is in the software section. And yes, I tried, as noted earlier, their latest driver, then the driver from Realtek directly, which is two months newer. Neither supports 88.2 out SPDIF, even thought the chip is capable of it.

 

-----

 

The file was (and still is): Canada Day II, Harris Eisenstadt.

 

https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=catalogdetail&valbum_code=HD774355158920

 

Says 96/24, but is 88.2/24.

 

I have sent them a message, but unlike the crazy people here, they don't appear to work Sundays answering questions!

 

[arthrodoc]

They got back to me today, noting the mistake in the labeling of the album in question ... if you click the link above it now says 88.2 as it should.

 

I was delighted to be told I could download a replacement gratis, which I very much appreciated.

 

As far as the initial problem, I've heard an initial response from gigabyte, but I think the tech who took first crack didn't understand something ... had highlighted a Samsung audio device (I think a TV connected by HDMI) and showed how it would accept all the bitrates. In the same list displayed, they showed the Realtek "devices" but didn't think to check the supported bitrates for that.

 

I'll let you know their next response.

 

 

[arthrodoc]

Gigabyte me a link to a file which I presume will expose the missing bitrates for the Realtek chip spdif output... I say presume because when I try to unpack the rar file, it appears a password is needed for some of the files.

 

Once I get the password, I'll report on whether this works...

 

[PeterSt]

Just for trials, you could download XXHighEnd, choose the maximum rate your device seems to have, and set the output to 24 bits for "DAC needs" (not the default 32). If it then doesn't work, it never will.

 

When you're done, throw out XXHE again.

 

Peter

 

PS: HD Audio really is the most lousy "standard". It was the latest of everything I got working, and still it doesn't support Kernel Streaming (which never was supported officially by MS anyway).

 

[arthrodoc]

I appreciate your comments ...

 

The new driver that Gigabyte sent added 88.2/16 bit. They said higher rates aren't accessible in Windows?

 

How come they ARE if you use drivers for USB machines (such as supplied by W4S or Calyx or others with their DACs)?

 

Seems strange to me that a DAC can support such a bitrate and that a driver can be made to show that support for USB, but a driver for a motherboard chip to output via SPDIF, that should be able to support it, can't do so. Is there an issue with SPDIF that is different than USB? I read somewhere (I think one of the DAC hardware sites) noting that althought their DAC supports USB up to 192/24, the spdif interface is inconsistent above 96/24, and might work but not guaranteed.

 

Maybe I just don't understand the hardware/driver issues (no big surprise; I'm not an engineer) ... but how come SOME drivers can show these bitrates, and not others, when the hardware is capable?

 

In my case, although the target can support spdif in all supported rates, the source, an spdif output on the motherboard, running the ALC892 chip which is supposed to support the same rates, won't, at least under windows 7.

 

If a separate audio card with spdif out is attached, with its own drivers, would that support those rates?

 

eg: I see the ASUS card in the CASH list has different rate supports depending on the driver:

 

S/PDIF Digital Output:

44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @ 16/24bit, Dolby Digital

ASIO 2.0 Driver Support:

Supports 44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @16/24bit with very low latency

 

So: does adding in a separate sound card add the capability of adding the "missing" bitrates for SPDIF with custom drivers (seems to).

 

I guess a naive question is how come the drivers in J River can't do this, or do they depend as well on what the default windows drivers are telling them?

 

[Miska]

Windows (Vista and 7) audio engine has support for limited number of output rates. This is what you can find from the Control Panel's Sound settings.

 

Hardware and drivers can support pretty much any other rates too, but in order to access these, player software needs to be capable of direct access.

 

There are also quite many hardwares that lack support for 88.2/176.4 rates. And quite many that do support those. With a separate PCI(e) card it is possible to access those if the integrated one doesn't work with those rates for any reason.

 

Some generic consumer hardware vendors think that everybody is using their hardware through the Windows audio engine and don't bother to support rates that are not supported by the engine...

 

 

[PeterSt]

What you see in Windows (Vista/W7) is only the rate where the OS can resample to. It tells nothing about what the hardware can do, and on that matter the OS can do it all just too, if only Exclusive Mode is used. So, Windows will never show 88.2 and 176.4, because it can't resample to that (which would be about Shared Mode).

If JR doesn't allow you to choose 88.2/176.4, so be it, but that's JR then for Exclusive Mode (and NOT the OS).

 

Why can a USB DAC do it anyway ? well, because it is just another "soundcard" so to speak. Other possibilities, different drivers and nothing strange about that as such.

 

Of course, if the hardware doesn't allow the rates you are looking for, there it stops. Also in Exclusive Mode. But remember HD Audio is a strange "sound device" amongst them all, and it merely depends on the OS's resampler than being good within itself. Additionally its control is so strange, that this may be the good reason that a random player can't acces those rates (while is actually just may work, and which can't be seen about any data in the system afaik).

 

Peter

 

PS: Please notice that Miska pretty much said the same, but in different wordings.

 

[arthrodoc]

Thanks, Miska and Peter ..

 

From your comments, I wondered if xxHighEnd can send the 88.2 files out the spdif out, even if the Windows driver thinks it can't?

 

I know in J River, when I try to send that file thru spdif, it wants to resample.

 

In your earlier reply, above, you'd mentioned setting sample rate in XXHighEnd to 96, which I took to mean that it would resample 88.2 to 96, which I thought wasn't a good idea? If I tell it that the spdif out can support 88.2 etc, will it send the file out spdif at that rate?

 

I thought it would be better to downsample to an even divisor, eg 44.1/24, to potentially produce less artifact.

 

I also assumed that 44.1/24 would be better sounding that 88.2/16 ...

 

I'm still fiddling with all this, so haven't tried downloading XXHighEnd to see what happens, but I'll try that too.

 

 

 

[mingojj]

Chris: I see that someone has a similar problem to mine. I am running within my multi-channel home theater set-up a Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit computer using a 2nd generation SandyBridge CPU (Core i3 3.1Gh) with integrated Intel (2100) graphics and sound card. This PC is connected via HDMI to a Marantz AV7005 pre/pro, Krell 5-channel amp, and Wilson Audio fronts and Wilson center and surround speakers. The Realtek controller running the integrated sound card, when HDMI is being used, recognizes the Marantz pre/pro and then utilizes a Microsoft driver which permits all 7 resampling rates to be bit-streamed via the jRiver MC16 software without any DSP being utilized. That is, MC16, with Output Mode unchecked, can send audio files to the pre/pro in 32, 44, 48, 88, 96, 176, and 192khz resampling rates. I have double-checked this by getting a Reference Recording HFx sampler with 176.4 khz files and also some 88.2 files. jRiver runs these through the HDMI connection to the pre/pro without saying that it needs to use DSP.

 

The music resulting from this set-up is quite good, the best I’ve ever had within my HT set-up. So, I then tried to see what would happen if I hooked up this PC to my 2-channel system in my main listening room. Unfortunately, my Berkeley Alpha DAC has no HDMI input (although there is an RJ-45-type jack that the manual says might be used for HDMI in the future). When hooking up the PC’s Toslink or S/PDIF coax output to the Alpha DAC, the Realtek audio controller cannot recognize the DAC and so I must use the “Realtek Digital Output” designation for the playback device. Here is where the trouble begins – the Realtek Digital Output, when used as the default playback device, utilizes a Realtek driver (not the Microsoft driver used when HDMI is connected). This Realtek driver permits only 4 resampling rates to be bit-streamed: 44, 48, 96, and 192. So, when I play an audio file with 88 or 176 resampling rates, the MC16 software must use DSP to send out a 96/24 signal to the DAC (in the case of 176.4 files) or a 44.1/24 signal to the DAC (in the case of 88.2 files).

 

As a practical matter, the resulting DSP-influenced sound is still quite good, but like other audiophiles I’m always looking for “perfect” and therefore am trying to see how I can achieve true bit-streaming with MC16 for these two resampling rates when NOT hooked up to a DAC via HDMI. I see two possible fixes:

 

1) Try to use the Microsoft audio driver that automatically is employed when hook-up is through HDMI, instead of the Realtek driver when the playback device is not connected via HDMI; or

 

2) Use a PCI-based sound card whose driver permits all the important resampling rates and which has, preferably, an AES output (SPDIF coax RCA is a second choice). I am not interested in any card that has only a USB digital audio output.

 

If I wanted to fix just the 88.2 khz problem I could use an updated Realtek driver which I understand is very new (September 2011; but I haven’t looked for it yet). But I’d like to solve both resampling-rate problems if possible. Can you provide any advice, including for option 2) the brand and model of sound card? Obviously I’d rather find a way to change the driver rather than buy an additional sound card. One thing I think I know is this is NOT a jRiver problem, since it requires no resampling for any file when the Microsoft driver is used when connected via HDMI.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi mingojj - The CASH List has a few cards that will solve your problem.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Computer-Audiophile-Suggested-Hardware-List

 

Also the ESi Juli@ card will work well.

 

http://www.esi-audio.com/products/julia/

 

 

 

[Audioseduction]

Would those third party soundcards for sure play all 44.1k/48k/88.2k/96k/176.4k/192kHz sample rates unlike Realtek chipsets?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Audioseduction - Very good question. Most of the more expensive professional cards handle all the critical sample rates. The consumer cards are all over the board and even change with new software updates. The ASUS Xonar STX and ESi Juli@ are pretty well known to play the above sample rates at a reasonable cost.

 

 

 

[pacwin]

 

There are a lot of consumer sound cards and motherboards which don't implement the [44.1]/88/2/176.4 clock rates. 44.1 is typically upsampled to 48kHz by software defaults. For example the Auzentech Meridian 2 is touted by them as an audiophile card and indeed it has excellent DACS, swappable Opamps and so forth but it cant play or record 88.2/176.4 files!!. These are designed for typical consumer DVD and Bluray 48/96/182 sample rates. Basically its a design failure from a computer audio point of view. The audio engine and DAC can process the sample rates but the necessary clocks/PLL's are not implemented.

 

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-meridian2g.php.

 

I'd reccomend you take a look at one of these new Musiland 03 USB sound cards which can work at 384/32 and can feed your Marantz or work also as a DAC. I have had great success with the Musiland 02 usb sound card as a digital out to my DACS.

 

http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/musiland-usb/

 

[mingojj]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I have NO problem with my multi-channel system: the HDMI connection, with Microsoft driver, allows all 7 resampling frequencies to be bit-streamed perfectly by jRiver (w/o DSP). I've also now solved one half of the problem with my 2-channel system, using an integrated 2nd generation iCore 3 card with Win 7. That is, I simply uninstalled the Realtek controller. This causes Microsoft to install a driver for the SPDIF coax digital output to my Alpha DAC that can have all but one resampling rate bitstreamed w/O DSP -- 176.4 So now, for Chris especially, the following question -- of the three cards you mentioned -- ASUS Sonar STX, ESI JULI, and Lynx AES16e -- have you actually seen these hooked up to an Alpha (or any DAC that shows the received resampling rates) which shows 88.2 and 176.4 coming in? The websites show that a) only the Lynx will allow AES-XLR digital output, and b) none of the 3 specifically state that they will handle all 7 resampling rates w/o DSP (the rates naturally handled by the Microsoft driver when HDMI is hooked up to a multi-channel DAC). Of the 3 cards, the Lynx at $799 looks like it will do it, but still, I'm not sure. Thanks again, John

 

[mingojj]

An update for anyone interested in this thread. The ASUS website says specifically that their PCIe card (Sonar STX) will handle only 44.1/48.0/96.0/192.0 -- no mention of 88.2 or 176.4. I have an e-mail out to ESI (the Juli PCI card)regarding what rates their cards will support using their drivers. Will get back to you. mingojj

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi mingojj - I can guarantee the STX works with 88.2 and 176.4. I worked with ASUS on this issue before the card supported all relevant sample rates.

 

Here's my review on the card where I talk about configuring the card to support all sample rates.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/ASUS-Xonar-HDAV13-Slim-and-ASUS-Xonar-Essence-STX-Review

 

 

 

[mingojj]

Chris: thank you. thank you. You have solved my problem. When I get the machine all built and tested out, I'll call it the CA Special. John.