DAC Virgin Needs Help, Please!

[Joebah]

Please help! I am planning to purchase a DAC to be used as described below. I am a complete audio neophile, but trying to learn. The thing is, the more I try to narrow things down, and the longer I look, the more I seem to be going in circles.

 

During all of my internet travels so far, this board seems to be the most knowledgeable and helpful. So, I pose my questions here.

 

I will primarily be using the DAC with my MacBook Pro in my office. I have ripped several thousand CDs in Apple Lossless (now rethinking the wisdom of this – but that’s another matter). I also have a growing number of AIF and Flac and planning to pursue more and more of these from various sources online. I also have quite a large number of stuff purchased from iTunes (something I have slowed way down on if I can get the same material on CD). And I have an enormous library of vinyl that I am hoping to someday get properly digitized. All of my music files are currently stored on external hard drives. Musical styles are fairly evenly divided between rock, jazz, and classical.

 

With the MacBook, I would intend to use the DAC either through USB/optical; or via optical out of my Airport Express to Audioengine 5’s (this wireless scenario may in fact be the most frequent situation – but I want flexibility to use in other scenarios).

 

Some of the things I am looking for:

 

I am looking to improve my ability to play and maximize my enjoyment of higher bit music files (24-bit). The goal is to improve my listening pleasure – move more towards the sound I would get from playing SACDs.

 

I want maximum flexibility in terms of types of files I can play, and the types of in/out connections.

 

I want to minimize obsolescence, to the extent reasonably possible (I know the next best thing will always come out tomorrow).

 

But an improvement in SOUND is the most important thing I am looking for.

 

I also have some equipment that I rarely use: Rotel Rx1050; Sony C555ES; and B&W floor-standers. But I would like a DAC that I could use with this setup too.

 

Based on the reading I have done so far, I have boiled down the DACs I am looking at to the following (in no particular order) (my budget is $800 or less, and "best bang for the buck" doesn't hurt):

 

PS Audio Digital Link III

 

Arcam rDac

 

Cambridge Dacmagic

 

This would be the first time I have purchased a DAC. There is no local dealer that I am aware of to take some of these home to demo.

 

Again, I am at this point overwhelmed and massively confused by the “language” regarding what makes these desirable or not: upsampling, jitter, etc., so I am looking for advice from someone who understands and has actual experience with these units.

 

I would be very grateful if someone could help me figure out the pros and cons of the DAC units above given how I will likely be using them and the goals I am trying to achieve. What’s the best sound? What’s the best value? And maybe I am not even asking the right questions or looking at the right units(?).

 

Thanks for any advice you might care to offer!

 

(Whew! I just noticed how long-winded I got, but maybe more info is better than less.)

 

 

 

[bikemig]

You might want to read this review of the arcam rdac, http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Arcam-rDAC-Asynchronous-USB-DAC-Review.

 

The HRT streamers are very well received. I have the least expensive one and I think it's great.

 

For wireless music streaming to your A-5s or via your stereo receiver, you might want to consider the Squeezebox Touch. I've been very happy with this set-up.

 

[Oystein]

The PS Audio is on the top of your budget .. the Cambridge and Arcam well below.

Something in the middle could be the Lindemann USB DAC; priced in EU for 690 Euro.

 

It supports up to 24/192 over USB and had Toslink optical and Coax S/PDIF inputs.

It is the purchase I made this week ... is on its way at the moment.

 

Lindemann is a small German High-End company with few amps and disc players which are fine pieces according to several reviews.

The DAC is priced well below the average price of their other equipment so I hope that the single DAC review that is available until now is true.

At least Lindemann knows how to make good sound so I hope their house sound will also be in their DAC.

 

[Codifus]

The Airport Express is out. It can only do 16/44.1 audio.

 

Your optical output on your Macbook is an option, but Apple TOSlink output's are known to be very jittery. Jitter is the enemy, the less the better. TOSlink is the technical term for optical output, by the way. It stands for Toshiba optical link. Also, the macbook's optical output put's a maximum of 24/96 audio data, none higher. This may be fine for you if you were to get the Cambridge DACMagic because 24/96 is the highest audio data rate it will accept. Internally, it upsamples everything to 24/192 before converting it to music. Because of the Apple's high jitter optical outputs, I would recommend a jitterbox like the Monarchy DIP to put between the macbook and your choice of DAC.

 

Lastly, you can go USB. The M2Tech hiface products are well received here and elsewhere. You can output up to 24/192 audio and the hiface products seem to do a great job of cleaning up jitter as well. Of course at the end of the chain would be one of the DACs you mentioned.

 

I have no experience with any of the DAcs you entioned, but they are all well regarded in that price point.

 

Hope this helps and gets you going in the right direction.

 

CD

 

[Joebah]

They have been helpful with my efforts to get my brain wrapped around these new concepts.

 

A couple of follow-up questions to what has been offered so far:

 

Wireless streaming issues:

 

If the Airport Express won’t handle it, is the only way to currently wirelessly stream 24 bit to use something like the Squeezebox? I was thinking that the limitation to 16-bit might be in iTunes and that I could avoid that by using a different player (like Songbird?) that supports 24-bit and use AirFoil to stream it… If the limitation is in the AE, then that won't work.

 

(I am unclear how a Squeezebox integrates with my current iTunes/external hard drive storage setup.)

 

Assuming that I can’t stream above 16-bit with the AE, will adding a DAC still improve the sound I stream from iTunes? About 2/3rds of my music is lossless burned from my CDs.

 

It seems that at some point a wireless Arcam rDac was also proposed, but (1) I don’t see it on their website and (2) not sure it would be available in the US.

 

On the other hand, I had previously looked at the review of the Arcam rDac and was concerned that the sound was not as good using the Toslink (at least compared to the USB).

 

USB connection issues:

 

I am not clear what the purpose of the HRT streamer is. Is the HRT streamer the same sort of concept as the hiface, to clean up the stream from the computer? Are these different than the Monarchy DIP Upsampler?

 

(Also, I will follow up with a look at the Lindemann USB DAC.)

 

Thanks again!

 

 

[bikemig]

The various HRT streamers are very clean and easy to use. You can get it with either RCA or balanced outputs. I think this is the simplest way to get high quality output from your computer. My music has all been ripped into Apple lossless as well. The SB Touch will integrate very nicely with your existing set up. It will not change anything in Itunes and uses the Itunes database to build its own database I believe. It does use a different interface than Itunes, though; you can control it directly or via a computer browser or via a variety of other devices. It can be tweaked a number of different ways to suit your preferences. I've used the AE analog out and the sound is clearly somewhat degraded so I would use it with a dac if you want to go that route.

 

[Oystein]

"On the other hand, I had previously looked at the review of the Arcam rDac and was concerned that the sound was not as good using the Toslink (at least compared to the USB)"

 

The general conclusion is that asynchronous USB is the best connection if you have to depend on the onboard souncard.

The onboard soundcard which provides optical toslink and sometimes coax is in general low quality and high-jitter.

This in itself degrades sound quality and you can not really blame the DAC for that.

If you buy a really good soundcard (which excludes laptops) you can have a good quality toslink or coax S/PDIF out with low jitter.

 

But this is only an option if you already have a good DAC without USB input.

 

Otherwise go for a USB DAC.

 

[Paul R]

Well, consider the AE again. If you have several thousand CD's ripped, the AE is an excellent choice. (Your CD's are at 44.1/16 anyway, which is exactly what an AE supports with bit perfect results.

 

As for DACS- you really need to listen to them. A DacMagic is hard to beat a twice the price, but it will upsample all the inputs to 192K, which is usually beautiful but can produce some hard edged sound.

 

Also look into an Apple TV2- it streams perfectly, and can work easily as a multi-zone player. (i.e. You can play different output to each location if you wish.)

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Not sure about availability in USA but the wireless version of the rDAC is available. Requires a dongle for USB or iOS device, and supports 16/44.1 and 48 only.

 

"On the other hand, I had previously looked at the review of the Arcam rDac and was concerned that the sound was not as good using the Toslink (at least compared to the USB)."

 

My impression of the rDAC (and reviews about it) is that the standout feature of the rDAC is it's USB connection due to it's async transfer mode (unique in it's class?) but that it is equally good fed via SPDIF from a good source. Comments are that compared with it's competitors it's a great USB DAC but with SPDIF it merely meets expectations ... but those expectations are high!

 

Eloise

 

[Codifus]

If the Airport Express won’t handle it, is the only way to currently wirelessly stream 24 bit to use something like the Squeezebox?

 

The Squeezebox can play up to 24/96 audio wirelessly. There may be other options. I'm not familiar with them.

 

I was thinking that the limitation to 16-bit might be in iTunes and that I could avoid that by using a different player (like Songbird?) that supports 24-bit and use AirFoil to stream it… If the limitation is in the AE, then that won't work.

 

The 16 bit limitation is not within iTunes. iTunes can play 24/192 audio to a locally attached (USB or Firewire) DAC.

 

(I am unclear how a Squeezebox integrates with my current iTunes/external hard drive storage setup.)

 

The Squeezebox software connects to where iTunes is storing your music. It does not use iTunes at all, but rather its own software.

 

Assuming that I can’t stream above 16-bit with the AE, will adding a DAC still improve the sound I stream from iTunes? About 2/3rds of my music is lossless burned from my CDs.

 

You can make a great airport express based music system. My system is based that way. I have a PowerMac G4 using iTunes that feeds my airport express. The AE then optically feeds a Theta TLC jitterbox. The Theta TLC feeds my DAC, a Matrix Mini I which finally outputs audio to my stereo. The Theta TLC transformed my AE's jittery optical output. Unless you have a DAC that is extremely good at reducing jitter, you really should get some sort of jitterbox connected after the AE.

 

 

I am not clear what the purpose of the HRT streamer is. Is the HRT streamer the same sort of concept as the hiface, to clean up the stream from the computer? Are these different than the Monarchy DIP Upsampler?

 

The hiface, Monarchy DIP, and Theta TLC are SPDIF converters/jitterboxes. They convert one type of SPDIF connection to another, USB to co-ax, toslink to co-ax etc, and they clean up the jitter while doing so.

 

That cute little HRT Streamer is a DAC:)

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

CD

 

 

[darascal]

Hi Joebah,

 

I can relate to your sense of overwhelm regarding Dacs. Everyday, I seems to read about a new one! Which is why I started off simple (a few years back) with with the original $100 HRT Music Streamer (btw, this is just a Dac).

 

However, I am skeptical that a Dac will offer much improvement for your Audioengines, since they may not be resolving enough to notice a difference. I have the Audioengine 2's & they are quite impressive for the price; However, I did some tests running the analog out from my AE vs. the optical out of the AE into a Dac (tested with Musical Fidelity V-DAC & a Benchmark DAC1). I could detect very little difference sound quality.

 

My 2's actually sound quite good through the AE analog. However I've done similar tests w/ my other systems (see my sig), and the improvement in sound quality with a Dac (even the original $100 HRT) is obvious.

 

This may not be the case w/ the 5's, but it's something to keep in mind. In any case, spending $500-$600 for a Dac for $450 powered speakers strikes me as over-kill, but to each his own. If you do try out a Dac, may I suggest something a bit more modest, e.g. the V-DAC ($300). Great deal for the price.

 

Btw, I don't know if anyone has said this, but if you intend on going wireless, the HRT is out (as are all USB-only Dacs). But having a Dac w/ USB & optical could be interesting, since you could compare direct USB-connect w/ your laptop & optical via the AE.

 

Have fun,

Rascal

 

[Joebah]

Thanks again for all of the helpful input!

 

I am looking into some of the options that you have suggested, and also continuing to read the different threads on this board (and the CA Academy) to try to educate myself.

 

[realhifi]

The very best education is one where you start listening. As you have seen from your thread, there are as many opinions as members and everyone has their very favorite way of getting those digits into music. If you think this is confusing you should start listening to phono cartridges and phono preamp combos and try to pick "the best" for someones particular system. If everyone was completely honest they'd all agree there simply is not "one" answer or "best". There's just the one that someone likes better than the other.

 

Best thing is to just pick one of the recommendations and try it. Don't spend a bundle right away, try some inexpensive solutions and start listening.

 

[bikemig]

I don't know about the A-2s but a dac does help with the A-5s. I agree that it might not make sense to spend a lot of money on a dac for the A-5s since they only cost $350 or so. I have mine connected via the analog out of my mac mini for movies and use the SB Touch for music. I have done a lot of listening to music both from the mini using the analog out and the Touch. The Touch has a better dac than the mini and I can hear the difference.

When I bought my desktop system (audioengine N-22 amp and P-4 speakers), I listened to it for a long time before buying a dac (the HRT music streamer ii) so I that I had a reference point. I could hear the difference once I added the dac; my point is that even fairly inexpensive systems can be improved with a good quality dac.

 

[darascal]

Hmm, maybe the 5's are more resolving ... but aren't there other variables? E.g., does the SB have a lower jitter output than the Mini analog, etc.

 

Did you make a comparison of Mini analog = > A5 vs. Mini analog => Dac => A5? That would be the fair comparison.

 

Rascal

 

[Joebah]

I just ordered a V-Dac and a V-Link (neither of which were on my original short list - but found a good deal and the combo seemed like a good place to start).

 

Hopefully, pick them up today or tomorrow. Excited!

 

Question on burn-in: is there a recommended procedure?

 

Or does it really just involve using the equipment like you normally would for some period of time?

 

[darascal]

Cool, Joebah!

 

I'll be curious to hear how it all sounds to you. I'm especially curious about the difference the V-Link will make.

 

As far as burn-in, there's two schools:

-Keep your system playing music 24/7 (or as much as possible)

-Use it as you typically would

 

Personally, I did not notice a tremendous difference as my V-DAC broke in & I think the burn-in time is not too long. So I'd say that listening as you usually do will probably suffice.

 

Have fun & let us know how it goes!

 

Rascal

 

[realhifi]

Good choice Joebah. Now just hook them bad boys up and start listening! I usually tell my customers to simply hook things up and start listening, preferably to things they haven't even heard before just to get used to the sound of the new equipment in their systems. Turn on some internet radio and let it play for a few days and you should be good to go.

If you notice improvements over the course of the next few weeks it's icing on the cake.