MCH DACs with Best Soundstage?

[botrytis]

8 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

That makes no sense at all.  The room is an issue either way.

 

I don't know how people ignore what room acoustics do to sound. I totally agree.

[nxrm]

8 hours ago, El Guapo said:

I don't think that is an issue since nearly all multichannel music already preserved lotta headroom. Just FYI by Dolby's Atmos Music spec, the minimum is 20dB headroom when doing speaker calibration at 85dBC each. Which means before signal clipping the mix engineers already can't sustain such loud volume when 12~16 speakers play together. Imagine 85dBC output from every single speaker and also imagine if mix engineer use that 20dB headroom to 105dB (every speaker all at 105dBC output)... hearing damage occurs.

 

Needless to say, second by second vigilance against high SPL induced hearing damage is always the absolute greatest precaution of all sane audiophiles-or any sane person. But I should have pointed out that while I will be using this 5.3 system for BD and DVD movie disc playback-where at least half of which will MCH soundtracks-the rest of those BD and DVD movies and all of my stereo and mono. And my entire music collection are all commercial CDs, so none of it are MCH recordings. 

 

And if you read this article completely

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/intersample-overs-in-cd-recordings?_pos=1&_sid=0eeb1f150&_ss=r  

you will see that John Siau said that intersample overs distortion is most noticeable in CD recordings. Furthermore, he says that

 

"Every D/A chip and SRC chip that we have tested here at Benchmark has an intersample clipping problem! To the best of our knowledge, no chip manufacturer has adequately addressed this problem. For this reason, virtually every audio device on the market has an intersample overload problem. This problem is most noticeable when playing 44.1 kHz sample rates."

 

However:

 

"It is possible to build interpolators that will not clip or overload, but this is not being done by the D/A and SRC chip manufacturers. For this reason, Benchmark has moved some of the digital processing outside of the D/A chip. In the Benchmark DAC2 and DAC3 converters we have an external interpolator that has 3.5 dB of headroom above 0 dBFS. This means that the worst-case +3.01 dBFS intersample peaks can be processed without clipping. We also drive the ESS D/A converter chips at -3.01 dB so that no clipping will occur inside the ES9018 and ES9028PRO converter chips."

 

So while everyone on this thread is primarily concerned with MCH music recordings, much, if not the most precious recordings of countless others like me are only available in stereo or mono. And unfortunately for those like me, as Siau points out, few if any DAC brands apparently add intersample overs distortion reducing circuitry to their products. But apparently, the solutions are not all especially difficult. There's a thread at diyaudio.com called "Solving the Intersample DAC clipping problem for about ten euros".  

[El Guapo]

But I still don’t think it’s an issue. In Roon you can make headroom by using Roon’s DSP. Or, use HQPlayer to do such (strongly recommended).

[nxrm]

You may be right, though I think it sucks to have to rely on a pay forever to use solution to solve the problem. The fix offered at that diyaudio.com thread sounds far better to me. No DAC costing serious money should be without circuitry like this. But I'll bounce that off John Siau. 

[Nkam]

40 minutes ago, nxrm said:

You may be right, though I think it sucks to have to rely on a pay forever to use solution to solve the problem. The fix offered at that diyaudio.com thread sounds far better to me. No DAC costing serious money should be without circuitry like this. But I'll bounce that off John Siau. 

i also mentioned that RMEs DACs have extra headroom as well. 

[nxrm]

4 hours ago, Nkam said:

i also mentioned that RMEs DACs have extra headroom as well. 

But is that, in fact, true of its DACs as well as its built in ADCs? Again, since this is a pro audio box it's frequently used for recording.  So if the ADCs have the headroom to avoid this intersample overs distortion during recording then would the DACs need the headroom as well for playback? And would it compromise playback sound quality if the DACs did have it?

 

In any case, do RME interfaces have built in DIRAC or other on-chip room correction? 

 

And what to use for wireless master volume/mute remote control? Bobfa says that he uses J-remote and/or Apple remote to control his MOTU box. What to use for RME?

 

[fas42]

14 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

That makes no sense at all.  The room is an issue either way.

 

I would agree that for some people the room would always be an issue. If they require that there is effective silencing of all sound apart from what is relevant to a single musical event and the space it's performed in, then even the highest standard of SQ would not satisfy them, if the room wasn't 'perfect'.

 

But I don't require that. Not do I suspect would be the case for most listeners to music. Consider a real life scenario that could be constructed: two very different acoustic spaces connected to each other via a large opening common to both. And in each, simultaneously, two lots of acoustic music, from different genres are being performed - I could sit down in that opening, face one group of musicians, and connect to what they're playing. Then, turn around, and do likewise with the other players ... my brain switches from what is relevant in one case, to what is relevant in the second case.

 

That is an extreme situation. But my brain could handle it. So then dealing with a bit of extra reverb from the room I'm sitting in, from playback of a single event, is a very minor issue, compared to that.

[Nkam]

51 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I would agree that for some people the room would always be an issue. If they require that there is effective silencing of all sound apart from what is relevant to a single musical event and the space it's performed in, then even the highest standard of SQ would not satisfy them, if the room wasn't 'perfect'.

 

But I don't require that. Not do I suspect would be the case for most listeners to music. Consider a real life scenario that could be constructed: two very different acoustic spaces connected to each other via a large opening common to both. And in each, simultaneously, two lots of acoustic music, from different genres are being performed - I could sit down in that opening, face one group of musicians, and connect to what they're playing. Then, turn around, and do likewise with the other players ... my brain switches from what is relevant in one case, to what is relevant in the second case.

 

That is an extreme situation. But my brain could handle it. So then dealing with a bit of extra reverb from the room I'm sitting in, from playback of a single event, is a very minor issue, compared to that.

 

again that makes no sense at all. 
 

these are published scientific principles.  
millions are spent on concert halls for room acoustics , treatment and the way the concert hall is even constructed, the shape etc…..

 

rooms actually have room modes.   That’s scientific.  It’s real.  You can hear it big time. 
Reflections are a reality.   
room decay time is a reality.  
 

either you are trolling or I have no idea where you are getting these concepts from.  Lol 

It’s just east outer space.  
 

if that’s the case, well then stick your speakers right up against the front wall and point them towards each other.    Extreme case I’m making ? Yes.   But it is still based on the factual info I mention about room acoustics. 
 

get Dr Floyd Tooles book on room acoustics.    It’s a good read and a kinda ‘ free’ way of getting better sound by setting up you speakers and room well. 

[fas42]

6 minutes ago, Nkam said:

 

again that makes no sense at all. 
 

these are published scientific principles.  
millions are spent on concert halls for room acoustics , treatment and the way the concert hall is even constructed, the shape etc…..

 

Yes. When reproduction is good, then you hear that space. Not your own. The well designed acoustics of the musicians arena dominates what you subjectively register.

 

6 minutes ago, Nkam said:

rooms actually have room modes.   That’s scientific.  It’s real.  You can hear it big time. 
Reflections are a reality.   
room decay time is a reality.  
 

either you are trolling or I have no idea where you are getting these concepts from.  Lol 

It’s just east outer space.  

 

 

I don't hear room nodes. What I hear, with poor playback, is that there are so many things wrong with the SQ that any room node misbehaviour is the least of my concerns. The standard one needs to reach is that the illusion of the musicians playing completely takes over - this is still extremely rare, and hence why these type of discussions takes place.

 

6 minutes ago, Nkam said:

get Dr Floyd Tooles book on room acoustics.    It’s a good read and a kinda ‘ free’ way of getting better sound by setting up you speakers and room well. 

 

I have had access to Tooles' book for years - let's just say I disagree with his thoughts on what makes for good sound, on so many fronts, that it has little value for me ...

 

[Nkam]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Yes. When reproduction is good, then you hear that space. Not your own. The well designed acoustics of the musicians arena dominates what you subjectively register.

 

 

I don't hear room nodes. What I hear, with poor playback, is that there are so many things wrong with the SQ that any room node misbehaviour is the least of my concerns. The standard one needs to reach is that the illusion of the musicians playing completely takes over - this is still extremely rare, and hence why these type of discussions takes place.

 

 

I have had access to Tooles' book for years - let's just say I disagree with his thoughts on what makes for good sound, on so many fronts, that it has little value for me ...

 

 

ok 

[Confused]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

I don't hear room nodes.

I can hear them, with acoustic instruments, let alone with hi-fi.

[fas42]

12 hours ago, Confused said:

I can hear them, with acoustic instruments, let alone with hi-fi.

 

You've already mentioned, I believe, that you're sensitive to imbalances in sound from live instruments. Personally, such things don't bother me - I see them as part of the patina of a particular musical event. Far more disturbing is the smell of fakeness, the lack of life and energy in the reproduction - if trying to control room nodes damages the convincing nature of the replay, then it's a No Go!

 

I just recalled a "room node" that I do notice, with current rig - if a track with a deep bass line is on, and I move from the lounge to the kitchen area, then there's one spot at the crossover between the two where the sense of that bass is almost overpowering. So, am I going to go to great effort to try and 'cure' that tiny area. Or do I just move a foot or two, and the issue disappears?

[Confused]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

You've already mentioned, I believe, that you're sensitive to imbalances in sound from live instruments.

I think you have mixed different things up here. I am very sensitive to tonal imbalances, but I think the live instrument thing you are referring to was not about imbalances, but some posts I made about how it can be a little disconcerting being on stage next to live instruments, that is having one instrument right next to you at very high volume, and the rest of the band relatively quiet. This has nothing to do with room modes.

 

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with multi channel DACs either. It is all very off topic. So I suggest that if you do want to continue with this it is done elsewhere, not to clutter up the OPs thread.