Best Speakers Down to Midbass for 5.1? ~ $2K/Speaker

[nxrm]

To build a 5.1 system, my goal is to find speakers which resemble the neutrality/tonality/warmth mixture (e.g. Acoustic Research A3 acoustic suspension speaker??), and with a large 3D soundstage, airy highs with great dispersion, accurate imaging, lifelike superbly textured midrange and midbass and very good x & y off-axis response.

 

But bass response of the main speakers need only extend to the low midbass, as subs like these will handle content below ~65Hz.

https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/debra/

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/

 

My room is 20 ft x 16 with a triangular ceiling from 11 ft down to 8 ft. And as those like Geddes, Toole and Welti would still consider my ~ 2850 cu ft room to be small, I doubt that my ears could safely tolerate SPLs over 50db @ 6 ft from ~ 2kHz to 700Hz, assuming properly mixed music recordings and DTS-MA movie soundtracks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

And also because given 5 speakers, every speaker adds at least 3 db to the apparent and/or actual acoustic loudness.

Therefore, the mains would not have to be designed to play at high volume nor to conform to any such THX standards. Thus, speakers with only ~ 86db/watt sensitivity @ 3 ft should be inconsequential in my case.

 

Another concern: In reviewing this HT configuration from Triad      

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/triad-inroom-gold-home-theater-speaker-system-page-2  it was noted that

“As you'd expect, the LCR and Center speakers exhibit a superb timbral match - although the overall sound is balanced to err slightly on the warm side of neutral, rather than providing the hyper detail you sometimes get from speakers………… A slightly warmish tonal balance like this is often a good fit for many movies……………”.

 

Similarly, a reviewer found this to be a speaker with warmth but without sacrificing HF detail.                                                                                                  https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/sv-61r/measurements

 

And as my 5.1 system will chiefly be used for DVD and BD movie audio would not such speakers be better choice for a surround system than, for example, Genelec, ATC or others which may tend to accentuate highs or upper midrange in pursuit of maximal detail-and which might therefore further accentuate sonic flaws like clipping distortion from overloaded mixes or other such errors hardly uncommon with vintage or low budget movie and TV soundtracks?

 

Unless I’m wrong, those Triad and RBH speaker models seem to be the kind that most movie/TV viewers with sensitive ears would select for DVD/BD movie sound.

 

However, the major reason for this post is to request any other recommended any other bookshelf/ stand mount models which you believe might ideally satisfy all of the described speaker performance parameters even better. But while the off-axis response won't be so great if you're standing, it looks like those RBH SV-61R’s will be hard to beat, at least for ~ $1K/speaker.

My budget is ~ $2K/speaker.    

 

And recommendations for a center speaker?

 

[GregWormald]

I hope this helps.

 

8 hours ago, nxrm said:

To build a 5.1 system, my goal is to find speakers which resemble the neutrality/tonality/warmth mixture (e.g. Acoustic Research A3 acoustic suspension speaker??), and with a large 3D soundstage, airy highs with great dispersion, accurate imaging, lifelike superbly textured midrange and midbass and very good x & y off-axis response.

That's a pretty tough find—unless you are willing to go 2nd hand.

8 hours ago, nxrm said:

But bass response of the main speakers need only extend to the low midbass, as subs like these will handle content below ~65Hz.

https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/debra/

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/

 

My room is 20 ft x 16 with a triangular ceiling from 11 ft down to 8 ft. And as those like Geddes, Toole and Welti would still consider my ~ 2850 cu ft room to be small, I doubt that my ears could safely tolerate SPLs over 50db @ 6 ft from ~ 2kHz to 700Hz, assuming properly mixed music recordings and DTS-MA movie soundtracks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
 

That's not a small room and to get room-filling volume will take some efficient speakers or a powerful amp. Your (our) ears being sensitive to midrange but not to the lower registers means that you should be looking at a much wider frequency range to judge SPL needs for the room/system. 50dB is only a quiet to moderate background level. Remember also that peak levels will be many dB higher than the average, and without the capacity for the peaks I suspect you would be straining to hear the average.

8 hours ago, nxrm said:

And also because given 5 speakers, every speaker adds at least 3 db to the apparent and/or actual acoustic loudness.

Yes, but only if they are all playing at the same level. This is highly unlikely in a surround-sound environment. In general I wouldn't count on more than a 3-5 dB increase than from a single speaker.

8 hours ago, nxrm said:

Therefore, the mains would not have to be designed to play at high volume nor to conform to any such THX standards. Thus, speakers with only ~ 86db/watt sensitivity @ 3 ft should be inconsequential in my case.

Maybe, depending on your amp, preferred listening level, room liveness, etc. 

8 hours ago, nxrm said:

Another concern: In reviewing this HT configuration from Triad      

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/triad-inroom-gold-home-theater-speaker-system-page-2  it was noted that

“As you'd expect, the LCR and Center speakers exhibit a superb timbral match - although the overall sound is balanced to err slightly on the warm side of neutral, rather than providing the hyper detail you sometimes get from speakers………… A slightly warmish tonal balance like this is often a good fit for many movies……………”.

 

Similarly, a reviewer found this to be a speaker with warmth but without sacrificing HF detail.                                                                                                  https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/sv-61r/measurements

 

And as my 5.1 system will chiefly be used for DVD and BD movie audio would not such speakers be better choice for a surround system than, for example, Genelec, ATC or others which may tend to accentuate highs or upper midrange in pursuit of maximal detail-and which might therefore further accentuate sonic flaws like clipping distortion from overloaded mixes or other such errors hardly uncommon with vintage or low budget movie and TV soundtracks?

 

Unless I’m wrong, those Triad and RBH speaker models seem to be the kind that most movie/TV viewers with sensitive ears would select for DVD/BD movie sound.

 

However, the major reason for this post is to request any other recommended any other bookshelf/ stand mount models which you believe might ideally satisfy all of the described speaker performance parameters even better. But while the off-axis response won't be so great if you're standing, it looks like those RBH SV-61R’s will be hard to beat, at least for ~ $1K/speaker.

My budget is ~ $2K/speaker.    

I suggest that trying to buy a system from theory and reviews only is likely to go wrong. Please get out to some shops with systems, to friends, acquaintances, and anybody who will host you for an hour or so and do some real listening. Ask questions, take notes.

8 hours ago, nxrm said:

And recommendations for a center speaker?

The centre speaker is mainly for dialog, but should still have a sound signature that matches the rest of the speakers.

 

I use my two speaker stereo when watching the TV and that's with two 800 watt/channel active speakers. Going too small/limited would be a good way to want to upgrade a short while later. $2K per speaker is a pretty decent amount so some actual listening before purchase is highly recommended.

[cjf]

On 12/19/2022 at 1:16 PM, nxrm said:

To build a 5.1 system, my goal is to find speakers which resemble the neutrality/tonality/warmth mixture (e.g. Acoustic Research A3 acoustic suspension speaker??), and with a large 3D soundstage, airy highs with great dispersion, accurate imaging, lifelike superbly textured midrange and midbass and very good x & y off-axis response.

 

But bass response of the main speakers need only extend to the low midbass, as subs like these will handle content below ~65Hz.

https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/debra/

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/

 

My room is 20 ft x 16 with a triangular ceiling from 11 ft down to 8 ft. And as those like Geddes, Toole and Welti would still consider my ~ 2850 cu ft room to be small, I doubt that my ears could safely tolerate SPLs over 50db @ 6 ft from ~ 2kHz to 700Hz, assuming properly mixed music recordings and DTS-MA movie soundtracks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

And also because given 5 speakers, every speaker adds at least 3 db to the apparent and/or actual acoustic loudness.

Therefore, the mains would not have to be designed to play at high volume nor to conform to any such THX standards. Thus, speakers with only ~ 86db/watt sensitivity @ 3 ft should be inconsequential in my case.

 

Another concern: In reviewing this HT configuration from Triad      

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/triad-inroom-gold-home-theater-speaker-system-page-2  it was noted that

“As you'd expect, the LCR and Center speakers exhibit a superb timbral match - although the overall sound is balanced to err slightly on the warm side of neutral, rather than providing the hyper detail you sometimes get from speakers………… A slightly warmish tonal balance like this is often a good fit for many movies……………”.

 

Similarly, a reviewer found this to be a speaker with warmth but without sacrificing HF detail.                                                                                                  https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/sv-61r/measurements

 

And as my 5.1 system will chiefly be used for DVD and BD movie audio would not such speakers be better choice for a surround system than, for example, Genelec, ATC or others which may tend to accentuate highs or upper midrange in pursuit of maximal detail-and which might therefore further accentuate sonic flaws like clipping distortion from overloaded mixes or other such errors hardly uncommon with vintage or low budget movie and TV soundtracks?

 

Unless I’m wrong, those Triad and RBH speaker models seem to be the kind that most movie/TV viewers with sensitive ears would select for DVD/BD movie sound.

 

However, the major reason for this post is to request any other recommended any other bookshelf/ stand mount models which you believe might ideally satisfy all of the described speaker performance parameters even better. But while the off-axis response won't be so great if you're standing, it looks like those RBH SV-61R’s will be hard to beat, at least for ~ $1K/speaker.

My budget is ~ $2K/speaker.    

 

And recommendations for a center speaker?

 

I think several KEF LS50 Meta's might be a good option. These are Passive speakers so my assumption is that you already have an amplifier to power all the various channels. If not, they make Active versions as well.

[davide256]

I predict dissatisfaction with any speakers  purchased unless you use something like an Anthem AVR with ARC room correction

 

https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/type=av-receiver/model=mrx-540/page=overview

 

https://www.anthemarc.com/index.php?utm_source=AnthemAV.com&utm_medium=Online&utm_campaign=Anthem Room Correction&utm_content=Redirect

 

 

[nxrm]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:54 PM, GregWormald said:

I hope this helps.

 

That's a pretty tough find—unless you are willing to go 2nd hand.

 

On 12/19/2022 at 11:54 PM, GregWormald said:

That's not a small room and to get room-filling volume will take some efficient speakers or a powerful amp. Your (our) ears being sensitive to midrange but not to the lower registers means that you should be looking at a much wider frequency range to judge SPL needs for the room/system. 50dB is only a quiet to moderate background level. Remember also that peak levels will be many dB higher than the average, and without the capacity for the peaks I suspect you would be straining to hear the average.

Regarding what defines a room as "small", I can only differ to experts like Earle Geddes, James Romeyn, Duke Le Juene, Todd Welti and Floyd Toole. And I know that at least Geddes categorizes virtually all residential living rooms as small, even those with ceilings like mine. As for the "lower registers" below the midrange, assuming my stand mount speakers have ample midbass efficiency, anything below 70Hz will be handled by my powered subs.

 

Beyond this, I can only respond with reference to bottom chart here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sone It shows that a TV (speaker) placed a meter, or 3.3 ft, away would produce ~ 60db. But 3.3 ft away would be too loud for me. I sit 10 ft away from my old pair of floorstanding speakers I use for TV audio-albeit in my ~ 15 ft x 12 bedroom, though in about the same area of my 20 ft x 15 living room (with triangular ceiling) where I will have this 5.1 system. The floorstanders are old no brand 4 way possibly kit speakers with 15" woofers some had put out on the street decades ago. Sensitivity is likely no better than 82db/meter and my First Watt F4 amp can drive them directly from my Oppo 95 player plenty loud.

But the chart also shows that normal talking produces levels between 40 and 60 db at a meter away. Thus, I reasoned that ~ 50db @ 6 ft from ~ 2kHz to 700Hz (where the ear is most sensitive)-assuming properly recorded and mixed music (and movie soundtracks)-AND being delivered by five (not two) surround speakers (and at least two subs), is about (?) the highest and safe level. If my reasoning or use of that chart is flawed please advise.

 

On 12/19/2022 at 11:54 PM, GregWormald said:

Yes, but only if they are all playing at the same level. This is highly unlikely in a surround-sound environment. In general I wouldn't count on more than a 3-5 dB increase than from a single speaker.

Maybe, depending on your amp, preferred listening level, room liveness, etc. 

I suggest that trying to buy a system from theory and reviews only is likely to go wrong. Please get out to some shops with systems, to friends, acquaintances, and anybody who will host you for an hour or so and do some real listening. Ask questions, take notes.

The centre speaker is mainly for dialog, but should still have a sound signature that matches the rest of the speakers.

 

I use my two speaker stereo when watching the TV and that's with two 800 watt/channel active speakers. Going too small/limited would be a good way to want to upgrade a short while later. $2K per speaker is a pretty decent amount so some actual listening before purchase is highly recommended.

 

[nxrm]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:54 PM, GregWormald said:

Yes, but only if they are all playing at the same level. This is highly unlikely in a surround-sound environment. In general I wouldn't count on more than a 3-5 dB increase than from a single speaker. Maybe, depending on your amp, preferred listening level, room liveness, etc.

Except for very few newer titles and classics like these https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/North-by-Northwest-Blu-ray/762/

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Vertigo-Blu-ray/7748/

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Psycho-Blu-ray/7741/

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Dr-Strangelove-or-How-I-Learned-to-Stop-Worrying-and-Love-the-Bomb-Blu-ray/1106/

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Nashville-Blu-ray/292577/

 

, more than half of my DVD and BD collection are movies and old pre-stereo TV series have Dolby Digital or DTS MA mono audio. Therefore, most of the time the speakers would be outputted the single channel audio.

 

I suggest that trying to buy a system from theory and reviews only is likely to go wrong. Please get out to some shops with systems, to friends, acquaintances, and anybody who will host you for an hour or so and do some real listening. Ask questions, take notes.The centre speaker is mainly for dialog, but should still have a sound signature that matches the rest of the speakers.I use my two speaker stereo when watching the TV and that's with two 800 watt/channel active speakers. Going too small/limited would be a good way to want to upgrade a short while later. $2K per speaker is a pretty decent amount so some actual listening before purchase is highly recommended.

Given how the number of speaker brands have likely at least doubled over the last decade or so-plus how inflation and higher demand among larger numbers of wealthier audiophiles have pushed prices higher-unless there were reviews done by reputable professionals, I’d be lucky to have time and opportunity to hear up to 4 such short list models within my budget. Even so, venues for some or most of those would likely be hundreds of miles away. Distance traveling is no fun for me but I’ll do it to hear the right speaker (s) fitted with respectable hardware and auditioned with my recordings.

Again,  only reviewers (Stereophile, enjoythemusic, Parttime audiophile, audioholics) finding such stand mount speaker to perform admirably across at least most critical parameters will be the ones I could justify sparing time to audition, assuming they’re even available to be heard.

But so far it’s really been a very disheartening journey, to put it mildly. The latest let down was this speaker. https://www.stereophile.com/content/aerial-acoustics-5t-loudspeaker

At this price point I wasn't expecting JA to find speakers from this brand with off-axis windows this narrow, even if that B & W 803 D3 is $2K/pair more. What was Aerial thinking? Why opt for a ported box and/or other design choices just to get extended bass and/or higher output? THAT's what subwoofers are for! And I need two pairs of mains and a CC speaker for this long overdue 5.1 system build. So, the hunt continues. Very frustrating, unless I consider spending $3K per speaker to get something like those B & W 803 D3’s.   

OTOH, unless James Larson’s measuring methodologies and/or listening limitations are different than those of John Atkinson’s, I wonder how both would find the highs, mids and midbass of 5T versus this discontinued one? https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/sv-61r

On 12/19/2022 at 11:54 PM, GregWormald said: