Affordable DAC That Doesn't Resample High Rate DSD?

[Jud]

Been doing research for my next DAC, and finding it surprisingly difficult to identify one that is affordable and doesn't resample high rate DSD (I'd like to see something that would handle up to DSD512). And oh yes, I have a couple of other requirements: Balanced output and a built-in preamp/volume control, preferably with a remote control.  Not too demanding, am I? 😉

 

There are a few, but they seem liable to other objections.  For example, the Denafrips has a very large number of Amazon complaints that the customer's DAC was DOA and Denafrips' customer service was terrible or nonexistent. The iFi Diablo has a balanced line out, but it's fixed volume.  (The balanced output with variable volume is for headphones.)  The RME is difficult or impossible to find with an AKM rather than an ESS chip, and AFAIK it does DoP rather than native DSD, thus requiring a computer to be capable in effect of DSD1024 rates to achieve the desired DSD512 input.  My computer isn't.

 

So, anyone have any ideas?  Closest I've found are Holo Audio and Teac in the $3500-$4000 range, which doesn't feel like it fits my definition of "affordable" (my definition being that it's something I would want to afford, rather than just being able to afford).

[Jud]

That looks very interesting. However, it looks like I'd need a separate preamp to meet my requirements, and I'm reluctant to do that.  The reasons are (1) I have tried both going through a Spectral preamp and sending the DAC output direct to amp in my current setup, and direct sounds a lot better to me; (2) extra cables and an extra box - I prefer going in the direction of greater simplicity.

[Jud]

Also: iFi Pro iDSD signature - Price over $3200, and it has tubes.  Those are a non-starter for me, because I can tell you for certain that the day we decide to have a bunch of friends over is the day one of those tubes will burn out.

[Jud]

13 minutes ago, firedog said:

Probably beating a dead horse, as vocabulary has become corrupted, but DoP is native DSD. DSD data is intact and is never converted to PCM.

 

We could call it "Having to double the rate to which your computer must upsample," but that would be a bit unwieldy.  In any case, the problem remains the same.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, pis99 said:

I currently have Holo May and Spring 3 with preamp module. Even though the MUSICIAN PEGASUS is in my 16-year old son’s bed room system, I do not feel my son needs a pre-amp. I can not find a good preamp can do better than HQPE volume control and the balance output of Pegasus has way too much head room to drive any of my amp collections.

 

As noted in my profile, I tend to listen most often with Audirvana. Use of the software volume control there is restricted to directly connected DACs, so if I wanted to use software volume control exclusively, I could not. And I don't want to do that, even with HQP, for safety reasons. I simply never want to take the chance of accidentally turning the system on at full volume, because my amp has more than enough power to blow out my speakers.

 

So various worthy candidates must be excluded for that reason.

[Jud]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

Probably beating a dead horse, as vocabulary has become corrupted, but DoP is native DSD. DSD data is intact and is never converted to PCM.

 

More on topic: You are pretty much looking for an AKM DAC at your price level. ESS DACs don't do what you want, and other (non chip based) technologies that do what you want are going to be out of your price range.

 

So either:

A) find a used one;

B) Wait. I don't think your money is burning a hole in your pocket. AKM just started shipping chips in small quantities a few months ago. They will ramp up production and probably a year from now there will be several models available. Pretty likely one close to your requirements.

 

About iFi: AFAIK, they use a proprietary filter designed to work well with MQA. If I'm right, that's not what you are looking for. I'd check that out first, or only buy it if you can return it.

 

Yes. That's exactly what I've found, and exactly what I'm thinking.

 

The other very speculative alternative is something along the lines of the DSC2 with preamp, but I don't want to get into a DIY project.

[Jud]

34 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

and isn‘t this pretty much always the case with volume control in a DAC - that it defeats the idea of „direct DSD“ ?

 

Depends whether it's analog or digital.

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

Since when? Former versions of A+ provided to select software only volume control. Later versions unfortunately undithered - but if you upsample to DSD anyway the noise shaping is of course included in the DSD modulator.

 

Though it's there in the UI, I recall reading it does not work with UPnP/DLNA. That solved a mystery, because I had tried it, and though the UI changed it had no effect on actual loudness.

[Jud]

25 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Pretty much any iFi DAC that has TI/BB chip and supports DSD.

 

Two newer ones I have are NEO iDSD and xDSD Gryphon.

 

 

 

Hi Miska, thank you. How do the measurements look for these, if you've had a chance to do that?

[Jud]

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

@Jud, owning the Geshelli Labs really simple DAC, only Coax input, works quite well with a 12V LPS of some quality.

Their new DAC has a USB Option and XLR outputs. Can choose between three DAC chips. The price is modest, so not much of a risk.

 

Thanks, it looks like a very nice and very affordable DAC.

 

But let me reiterate that I'm really after something with an onboard preamp, and mention the calculation that went into the decision: I still have, and intend to keep, my very fine Spectral preamp.  But when I got my new amp (see below) I tried out my current DAC direct into the old amp first, and found I much preferred the DAC directly connected.  For whatever reason, it sounds better to me coming from the DAC's preamp versus first the DAC and then the Spectral.  (Yes, when I had the DAC running through the Spectral preamp I turned the DAC volume all the way up to take its preamp out of the circuit.)  I'm not willing to give up what I feel is a sonic improvement and go back to running my DAC through my Spectral preamp instead of direct.

 

[Jud]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

@Judd

tried for a couple of days to send this in a PM, you apparently didn't see it:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182925.msg1921229;topicseen#new

 

RME AKM DAC used for sale.

 

Thanks, for whatever reason I didn't receive it. (Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I spell Jud with only one "d." Yep, I've just gotta be different.)

 

The RME is undoubtedly a fine DAC. It does DoP though, which means I'd be limited to DSD256 with my computer. I like to do DSD512 now and then and would like to continue to have that choice.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, semente said:

Hi Jud, to the best of my knowledge the RME will not work as preamp if used in DSD-direct mode.

 

Yes, thanks, now I remember reading that before.

[Jud]

41 minutes ago, firedog said:

True. If it was me, I'd see if a T+A comes onto the used market for a not outrageous price. But even that may be above what you want to pay.

 

Another member kindly PM'd me about one that's come up on a used site. But I'm not quite ready to do anything immediately.

[Jud]

58 minutes ago, mehrdad said:

no they are not , you can activate or deactivate tubes in just a few seconds , also it has a player ,preamp , native dsd 1024 playback and dsd upsampling up to 1024.

you can get neo idsd for 800 $ , it doesnt have the tubes ,its not fully balanced nor can upsample or do more than dsd 512 but its cheaper.

go for pro signature.

 

Thank you for pointing out that the tube output need not be used.

 

I don't need upsampling, because I prefer to do that in software.

 

Can you tell me what you mean by "not fully balanced"?

[Jud]

15 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

@Jud

I would guess that it refers to a "balanced design" not including a dual mono DAC chip implementation.

 

"PureWave is a new, balanced, symmetrical dual-mono topology with short, direct signal paths."

 

I dunno...

 

Edit: Never mind, got it. IFi marketing speak.

[Jud]

The newer version of the NEO includes the iPurifier in the package. I don't need a more powerful headphone amp, since this would be in my main system and I have IEMs anyway. And I also don't require a greater filter selection, since I do that in software.

 

The only thing in your list that I would be missing is a dual chip topology, with its pros (completely separated circuitry) and cons (matching chips).

 

Edit: Actually, since I would be upsampling in software and bypassing the DAC chip, the disadvantage of a single chip might be somewhat minimized.

[Jud]

22 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Holo Spring 3 in this thread.

 

It's in the first post, actually. 🙂

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

from one of the four on-chip DSD analog conversion filters instead of the single one chosen by iFi.

 

What is the final analog conversion filter used by the NEO? What (of the other 3 choices) might work better for DSD256 or DSD512 fed to the DAC?

[Jud]

IIRC the RME DACs use DoP, so your computer would have to be capable of DSD512 with a DAC that does native DSD in order to send DSD256 to the RME.

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

DSD256 with DoP requires 705.6/768k PCM. This is what ADI-2 can do. Thus it can do all it's supported formats (DSD256 and 768/32 PCM) on all platforms, including macOS.

 

 

For example, my computer, which is a few years old by now (8700K chip, GPU not worth doing CUDA) can't do DSD512 with a native DSD DAC using preferred filter/modulator on HQPlayer. So I don't think it would be capable of sending DSD256 to the RME.

[Jud]

Wound up buying the iFi NEO Performance Edition. (Performance Edition comes with iFi’s “Purifiers” for SPDIF and USB. The SPDIF Purifier is big and has a separate wall wart - I just didn’t want to fiddle with it. I preferred the ISO Regen to the USB Purifier.)

 

Got in balanced cables today and running the NEO direct to amp. Really enjoying the way the system sounds, very musical and clear. Different tracks sound different, instruments sound like themselves.

 

One caution about a decision by iFi regarding the default configuration for the DAC: It is switchable between fixed (no volume control) and variable (analogue volume control) output. Mine was set to fixed out of the box. Since I’m running direct to the amp, I got full volume on initial hookup, and am lucky I didn’t blow out my speakers and eardrums . So if you're planning on running direct to amp, be sure you switch to variable output first. (The fact that the volume control numbers change does *not* mean the DAC is set to variable output. That’s what fooled me.)

[Jud]

22 hours ago, semente said:

 

The obvious question is: how good does it sound?

 

Hi Ricardo. Season's greetings. 🙂 The short answer is in my post:

 

Quote

Really enjoying the way the system sounds, very musical and clear. Different tracks sound different, instruments sound like themselves.

 

The longer answer is that "clear" and "instruments sound like themselves" is meant to denote accuracy, clarity and detail.  "Musical" means that despite the accuracy and detail, it doesn't sound cold or clinical to me. "Different tracks sound different" means I haven't been able to hear a consistent "system sound," which is a good thing. (A "system sound" is something I dislike, because any obvious consistent sound across different tracks gets boring quickly.) For the price (well under $1000 US), it seems to be a very nice unit.

 

Now of course all this is completely subjective, and thus not something I'd ask others to rely on. Objectively, the differences between this and my prior DAC are that this one doesn't do any upsampling to DSD (I send DSD256 or DSD512 to the DAC from software), and this has balanced outputs to take advantage of my amp's balanced inputs (and the common-mode noise rejection that comes from this).

 

22 hours ago, semente said:

What did it replace or compare to?

 

A Pro-Ject Pre Box S2, a very nice unit at slightly over half the price of the NEO. I had no particular complaints about the Pro-Ject, in fact I liked it quite a bit, though subjectively I do like the NEO better.