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Affordable DAC That Doesn't Resample High Rate DSD?


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Been doing research for my next DAC, and finding it surprisingly difficult to identify one that is affordable and doesn't resample high rate DSD (I'd like to see something that would handle up to DSD512). And oh yes, I have a couple of other requirements: Balanced output and a built-in preamp/volume control, preferably with a remote control.  Not too demanding, am I? 😉

 

There are a few, but they seem liable to other objections.  For example, the Denafrips has a very large number of Amazon complaints that the customer's DAC was DOA and Denafrips' customer service was terrible or nonexistent. The iFi Diablo has a balanced line out, but it's fixed volume.  (The balanced output with variable volume is for headphones.)  The RME is difficult or impossible to find with an AKM rather than an ESS chip, and AFAIK it does DoP rather than native DSD, thus requiring a computer to be capable in effect of DSD1024 rates to achieve the desired DSD512 input.  My computer isn't.

 

So, anyone have any ideas?  Closest I've found are Holo Audio and Teac in the $3500-$4000 range, which doesn't feel like it fits my definition of "affordable" (my definition being that it's something I would want to afford, rather than just being able to afford).

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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That looks very interesting. However, it looks like I'd need a separate preamp to meet my requirements, and I'm reluctant to do that.  The reasons are (1) I have tried both going through a Spectral preamp and sending the DAC output direct to amp in my current setup, and direct sounds a lot better to me; (2) extra cables and an extra box - I prefer going in the direction of greater simplicity.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Just now, Jud said:

That looks very interesting. However, it looks like I'd need a separate preamp to meet my requirements, and I'm reluctant to do that.  The reasons are (1) I have tried both going through a Spectral preamp and sending the DAC output direct to amp in my current setup, and direct sounds a lot better to me; (2) extra cables and an extra box - I prefer going in the direction of greater simplicity.

 

Read that thread, it won't be very interesting after that.

No electron left behind.

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Also: iFi Pro iDSD signature - Price over $3200, and it has tubes.  Those are a non-starter for me, because I can tell you for certain that the day we decide to have a bunch of friends over is the day one of those tubes will burn out.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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11 minutes ago, Jud said:

Also: iFi Pro iDSD signature - Price over $3200, and it has tubes.  Those are a non-starter for me, because I can tell you for certain that the day we decide to have a bunch of friends over is the day one of those tubes will burn out.

I have been using the ifi neo idsd and very happy with it. Seems to fit all your requirement for $799 usd.

 

balance out, preamp/dac  pcm 768, native dsd 512 (no resample). Been using hqplayer to upsample everything to dsd256, 7ECV2

 

Brought to a friend’s place two weeks ago to ab with his pontus ii with a pi2aes and he brought his pontus ii to my place last week and concluded that they sound more alike than Pontus ii vs Aries ii (which I had owned and ab with the ifi neo for a couple of months and sold the Aries ii at the end)

 

I started another thread earlier asking about potentially upgrading from the neo to the pro, but since I already have a Freya +, I don’t really need a tube dac, concluded no need to make that jump to the pro since I am pretty happy with the neo 

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

AFAIK it does DoP rather than native DSD,

Probably beating a dead horse, as vocabulary has become corrupted, but DoP is native DSD. DSD data is intact and is never converted to PCM.

 

More on topic: You are pretty much looking for an AKM DAC at your price level. ESS DACs don't do what you want, and other (non chip based) technologies that do what you want are going to be out of your price range.

 

So either:

A) find a used one;

B) Wait. I don't think your money is burning a hole in your pocket. AKM just started shipping chips in small quantities a few months ago. They will ramp up production and probably a year from now there will be several models available. Pretty likely one close to your requirements.

 

About iFi: AFAIK, they use a proprietary filter designed to work well with MQA. If I'm right, that's not what you are looking for. I'd check that out first, or only buy it if you can return it.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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13 minutes ago, firedog said:

Probably beating a dead horse, as vocabulary has become corrupted, but DoP is native DSD. DSD data is intact and is never converted to PCM.

 

We could call it "Having to double the rate to which your computer must upsample," but that would be a bit unwieldy.  In any case, the problem remains the same.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I've been looking around. There are a few that do what you want but without volume control.

The Chinese brands like Topping, Gustard, and Singxer used to make AKM DACs that would fit your requirements, but all have stopped production.

As I said above, my guess is that given a little time all these Chinese brands (if you are willing to buy those) plus some Western brands will start putting out AKM DACs that will fit the bill. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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6 hours ago, Jud said:

That looks very interesting. However, it looks like I'd need a separate preamp to meet my requirements, and I'm reluctant to do that.  The reasons are (1) I have tried both going through a Spectral preamp and sending the DAC output direct to amp in my current setup, and direct sounds a lot better to me; (2) extra cables and an extra box - I prefer going in the direction of greater simplicity.

I currently have Holo May and Spring 3 with preamp module. Even though the MUSICIAN PEGASUS is in my 16-year old son’s bed room system, I do not feel my son needs a pre-amp. I can not find a good preamp can do better than HQPE volume control and the balance output of Pegasus has way too much head room to drive any of my amp collections.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, pis99 said:

I currently have Holo May and Spring 3 with preamp module. Even though the MUSICIAN PEGASUS is in my 16-year old son’s bed room system, I do not feel my son needs a pre-amp. I can not find a good preamp can do better than HQPE volume control and the balance output of Pegasus has way too much head room to drive any of my amp collections.

 

As noted in my profile, I tend to listen most often with Audirvana. Use of the software volume control there is restricted to directly connected DACs, so if I wanted to use software volume control exclusively, I could not. And I don't want to do that, even with HQP, for safety reasons. I simply never want to take the chance of accidentally turning the system on at full volume, because my amp has more than enough power to blow out my speakers.

 

So various worthy candidates must be excluded for that reason.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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7 hours ago, firedog said:

Probably beating a dead horse, as vocabulary has become corrupted, but DoP is native DSD. DSD data is intact and is never converted to PCM.

 

More on topic: You are pretty much looking for an AKM DAC at your price level. ESS DACs don't do what you want, and other (non chip based) technologies that do what you want are going to be out of your price range.

 

So either:

A) find a used one;

B) Wait. I don't think your money is burning a hole in your pocket. AKM just started shipping chips in small quantities a few months ago. They will ramp up production and probably a year from now there will be several models available. Pretty likely one close to your requirements.

 

About iFi: AFAIK, they use a proprietary filter designed to work well with MQA. If I'm right, that's not what you are looking for. I'd check that out first, or only buy it if you can return it.

 

Yes. That's exactly what I've found, and exactly what I'm thinking.

 

The other very speculative alternative is something along the lines of the DSC2 with preamp, but I don't want to get into a DIY project.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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@Jud

The Singxer SDA-6 pro ticks all your boxes - except the preamp.

Its design focus is on the excellent internal clock, the elaborated USB isolation and the high quality output stage (class A, so it gets somewhat warm) - built around the AK4499. In DSD it's alsways AKMs direct DSD mode (bypassing internal on chip processing). Up from DSD256 it runs completely filterless. Fully balanced. Lots of inputs (also for external clock). And that's it - no feature set to speak of.

Extremely detailed sound. Not "velvety", actually neutral. With a lot of energy in the higher frequencies, which makes them not shrill or pronounced in any way - but super precise.

Given the quality parts assembled in this unit I don't think you can get anything comparable at this price point (around €1100).

This safes money for a preamp.

Just a thought...

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro
Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | NAD C 316BEE | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX

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Gustard R-26 is supposed to be a 1-bit DSD conversion, according to their specs. It is a decent price also. The design could be a little less 90's cool, but it could be worse.

Current:  Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM

DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC 

Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590

Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier

Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers

Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects

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18 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Gustard R-26 is supposed to be a 1-bit DSD conversion, according to their specs. It is a decent price also. The design could be a little less 90's cool, but it could be worse.

 I was going to suggest the slightly cheaper Gustard R-22, but it appears neither DAC has a volume control. Specs say output is "fixed" and I don't see any mention of a volume control. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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19 minutes ago, firedog said:

 I was going to suggest the slightly cheaper Gustard R-22, but it appears neither DAC has a volume control. Specs say output is "fixed" and I don't see any mention of a volume control. 

 

You can set it fixed or variable. It is in the Menu.

 

 

 

 

R26_manual_V1.27513.pdf

Current:  Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM

DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC 

Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590

Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier

Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers

Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects

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15 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

You can set it fixed or variable. It is in the Menu.

 

 

 

 

R26_manual_V1.27513.pdfFetching info...

But with volume control enabled -  is it still „direct DSD“ in this case? Doesn‘t volume control root the DSD stream through internal processing stage?

Or am I confusing things?

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro
Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | NAD C 316BEE | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX

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3 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Honest answer - I have no idea. 

 

Gustard support is about as fun to deal with as a loan Shark that you owe money to and he decided his boys will teach you a lesson.

I‘ve looked up the manual you‘ve posted:

 

“DSD DIRECT:
Default is OFF. Turn on to bypassing the internal interpolating FIR filter. The raw DSD stream is sent into the R-2R ladder directly.
*the volume adjustment is bypassed in this mode, so it is better to decrease the volume of amplifiers before enter this mode.“

 

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro
Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | NAD C 316BEE | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX

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and isn‘t this pretty much always the case with volume control in a DAC - that it defeats the idea of „direct DSD“ ?

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro
Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | NAD C 316BEE | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX

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That is basically the manual I found, just recently. I really haven't looked at it too closely. I am sure compromises were made to squeeze into a price range.

 

I am not an expert nor even a rank amateur 😉😇 . Those questions should be asked of a higher authority 😁 .

Current:  Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM

DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC 

Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590

Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier

Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers

Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects

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34 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

and isn‘t this pretty much always the case with volume control in a DAC - that it defeats the idea of „direct DSD“ ?

 

Depends whether it's analog or digital.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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3 hours ago, Jud said:

 

As noted in my profile, I tend to listen most often with Audirvana. Use of the software volume control there is restricted to directly connected DACs, so if I wanted to use software volume control exclusively, I could not.

Since when? Former versions of A+ provided to select software only volume control. Later versions unfortunately undithered - but if you upsample to DSD anyway the noise shaping is of course included in the DSD modulator.

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro
Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | NAD C 316BEE | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX

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35 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

Former versions of A+ provided to select software only volume control

A+ Version 3.5.5

1665227122_a355.jpg.ecf0b6704143f0357305be40fc5f755d.jpg

____________________________________________________

Mac Mini, HQPlayer | iFi Zenstream | Intona 7055-B | Singxer SDA-6 pro | Vincent SV237 | Buchardt S400 | SPL Phonitor One | Beyer DT1990pro
Desktop: Audirvana Origin | Intona 7054 | SMSL M500MKII | NAD C 316BEE | Aperion Novus B5 Bookshelf | Lehmann Rhinelander | Beyer DT700proX

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