USB optical cable : stunning IF powered & implemented correctly

[tgb]

Hello,

I know there are a few topics talking about usb optical cable, but I create a new one because :

 

1. I've been using a Corning 3.Optical since Apr.'15, power with a power bank. It did its job : quite good transmitter over long distance (I have the 10m version) between a do-everthing laptop & my Singxer SU-1 (modded), then connected thru coax to a FDA (Classé 2200i)

 

2. due to change in my system, just for testing purpose (for kidding to be frank), I changed the way I power it : I replaced the 5VDC power bank by a much cleaner PS : small transformer (5.4VAC output / 30VA) + AC/DC module MD from MPaudio (based on the LT3045 regulators).

 

=> SQ when powered nicely : stunning.

no harshness, detailed, precise etc... I won't tell the standard blablabla vs improvement.

 

To be (a bit) provocative, I would say this cable, when implemented correctly, is a game changer.

because :

- amazing price/perf ratio (although cable = 150eur + price of my tiny PS : 200eur => 350eur all included)

- it acts as a amazing quality long distance transmitter (forget about copper cable, they can't do that)

- it acts as a isolator, using fiber. I was in the process to change my audio server from NUC to SuperMicro motherboard when I tested that trick => clear now that putting money on the server is not relevant (in a 2nd step ok, but not in 1st step as it is the commom way). I use my do-everything laptop as source now !!!! And it's much better than a dedicated audio server ! LOL !

- overall, it acts as a RECLOCKER <= HERE IS THE KEY : as in reclocking business PS is key, when you change the PS to this cable the SQ is completly different, complete other league. You can't reclock properly with a power bank, but with a AC/DC module based on LT3045 you can do it. This exemple shows it perfectly.

 

What is interesting in this test is : it shows which part of the digital audio path is key vs SQ.

This critical part seems to be : the data reclocking after the server.

This example shows it.

The Grimm MU-1 shows it (see product review & interviews of the designers).

When network is the wire (not USB), the modded Buffalo with PinkFaun clock shows it.

 

Limits of my tests & remarks :

I've tested the Corning 3.Optical. It seems it is very very well built vs "clock" circuit. It may be different with the other products on the market (Monoprice https://www.amazon.fr/Monoprice-Slimrun-3-0-Type-extension-optique/dp/B01MYNCH2K & Cosemi https://www.amazon.com/COSEMI-Active-Optical-Support-transfers/dp/B07ZPDHVXS/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=COSEMI%2BCâble%2BUSB&qid=1603694650&sr=8-1&th=1)

 

Here is a bit summarized my tiny discovery.

 

For more info you can have a look at the thread I posted last week on the French hifi forum => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18535.html 

I'm talking to myself overthere as we are not many to own such cables :-) Thus, I created this topic herewith, hoping that I could meet other owners of fiber USB cable :-)

 

BRgds

[tgb]

4 hours ago, matthias said:

Can you please shed some light on how you do exactly connect the Corning with your devices as the Corning is only an USB extender with male-A to female-A connectors.

Hi Matthias,

the info is the link above (bottom of my 1st post => in the topic on the french forum :-) )

Use a Google Translate or other stuff is you need so.

If your translator get stuck vs some idioms I used, please say it & I'll do a proper summary here.

 

Here is the post & photo to answer the 1st part of your question : connexion between PC & Corning (cutting the 5VDC from the PC & external power) => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18535-post-410056.html#pid410056

I'll post the answer to the 2nd part of your question tonight : Corning output to hifi gear (modded Singxer SU-1 in my case).

 

@asdf1000 thanks for your feedback vs the Monoprice !

I realize that the Corning is not available anymore (can't find a 10m ; only 30m at >400eur... too much).

Very good to know that the Monoprice (still on the market) is a good product.

I found this other cable => https://www.amazon.com/COSEMI-Optical-transfers-Supports-simultaneously/dp/B07ZPDHVXS/ ; customer feedbacks are OK ; seems to be a good challenger too.

 

Regarding the other cable on the market, I trend is not to USB-A output but more to USB-C.

The point is that USB input of hifi gears require USB-A (or -B), but not -C.

A "solution" would be to buy a cable with USB-C output and add a adapter USB-C to USB-A. To me, this is a wrong solution because to convert USB-C to USB-A, these adapters use a tiny PCB. This conversion is not about re-connecting the wires from USB-C the way a USB-A prefers. Thus I guess these adapter would bring some noise.

Just a guess. To be confirmed of course.

Rgds

[tgb]

Hi Matthias,

Queuing adapters like this is not the issue.

1st : because I need it... to power the Corning externaly.

2nd : let's assume I loose "2points of SQ" due to these adapters, but I gain "125points of SQ" thanks to the nice current feeding the Corning => overall gain = 125-2=123points of SQ. Not bad... and the 2points lost I don't bother.

 

More & more DAC with USB-C input... well... honestly I don't know but it you look at very nice stuff like Innuos streamer / server / reclocker for instance : none have USB-C plug.

Market will push to USB-C but not sure it si relavant in audio : heavier bitrate thus more noise ? why bother with >5Gb/s capacity when USB2.0 is large enough for audio (and much less noisy I guess).

Rgds

[tgb]

FIY, I posted on the French forum some photo on the inside of the Corning 3.Optical.

I wrote with proper French, without slang or idioms, so Google translate should translate easily :-)

=> http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18535-post-413881.html#pid413881

 

Quick sum up :

I opened it to see what's inside the downstream plug (hifi device side).

My point was to see how it works & if possible to improve its PS, by bypassing the internal regulators & power it using an external PS (module AC/DC MPaudio).

 

As someone said on another thread some time ago : the wires in the cable are used to power the downstream plug for conversion fiber>usb.

The length of the cable exceed the requirement of a tiny 5VDC.

Thus, there is a boost converter in the upstream plug to get a voltage of 16VDC, high enough to run to the other plug.

Then, in the downstream plug, you have down-regulation from 16VDC (15.88VDC measured) to 2 voltages : 5VDC & 3.3VDC.

 

Then, my point would be to improve the current (5VDC & 3.3VDC) by external PS. But will it work afterwards ?... I'm wondering... Maybe I'll have a try, maybe not...

Rgds

[tgb]

2 hours ago, ThenewGearPPK said:

So just connect Monoprice SlimRun USB 3.0 Type-A Extension Cable or the COSEMI Active Optical AOC USB 3.2 cable to your regular USB cable connected to a Singxer SU-1 & you'll get a benefit?

Hi,

no. You don't connect these optical cables from source to a "regular usb cable" & then to hifi gear.

These cables replace "regular cable".

 

The trick is that you need to power it "properly" => see my post here : http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18535-post-410056.html#pid410056

I rewrite here in English to make it clearer :

1. transformer, from MPaudio. 30VA, 5.4VAC output

2. MPaudio "MD" module AC/DC, based on LT3045 to get clean 5VDC

3 & 4 are cheap USB adapters

5 is an adapter from Audiophonics that cut the 5VDC from the laptop & "inject" the clean 5VDC from the MD module

6 is a cheap adapter

7 is the Corning (PC-side plug)

 

On Singxer SU-1, I have the same kind of stuff (I'll post the photo later on).

 

The trick is simple : the power supply.

On this photo you have a USB charger (bottom-right) : plug it to the Audiophonics adapter to power the Corning and sound is dead harsh.

Quite crazy... this difference in SQ only due to the PS.

 

But in this trick : LT3045 based PS is the basic.

MPaudio module & transfo are not dead expensive (200eur). The SQ given by this PS is good => price/perf ratio is dead big.

Using a cheap & basic LPS at 80-100eur instead of LT3045 based PS would be a bad investment, lower SQ, lower price/perf ratio.

 

Hope it's clearer.

Rgds

 

PS : don't be surprised by this strange photo : when I don't need to go out with my laptop, it is on a small (dusty...) shelf and look at the wall because it is in the room next to my main room (where audio gear is). The laptop is linked to screens/keyboard/mouse in the main room, thanks to extenders (USB & displayPorts) (cable thru small hole in the wall to the main room). This way, from the main room, this basic laptop acts as a "working station", thus without any noise. Dead cool config, I recommend :-)

[tgb]

Hi seeteeyou,

in my case with a Corning, I needed these adapters. No choice.

Thanks for the link to this cable. I didn't know that one.

Cool to know there are alternatives to corning/monoprice using that techno.

Rgds

[tgb]

Hi,

Just a guess.

I'm pretty sure that :

- the Fibbr Alpha Optical USB => https://sklep.audiocolor.pl/produkt/fibbr-alpha-hifi-usb-a-b-dlugosc-10-mb/ ; at 410eur for a 10m long cable (I'm in Europe & don't have friend in mainland China that could ship one to me at 1/2 price ! :-) )

- and the Monoprice Fibre Optic Slimrun => https://www.amazon.fr/Monoprice-Slimrun-3-0-Type-extension-optique/dp/B01MYNCH2K ; at 160eur this one 20m long ; Fibbr is the manufacturer, Monoprice has no factory, they just rebrand it.

are the "same" product.

 

By "same" product I mean : same USB-to-fiber conversion, & same fiber-to-USB conversion.

These are the processes that act to SQ. Same processes = same SQ.

 

The differences between these 2 cables are support processes that do not affect the SQ :

- in the Slimrun, you have boost converter in the upstream plug, & buck converter in the downstream plug (to higher voltage to 16VDC maybe like into the Corning)

In the Alpha : no boost / buck converters required. That's why the upstream plug is smaller.

- the remaining differences are "cosmetics".

The Alpha, because it targets audio customers, has external PS on the downstream plug + USB-B male plug. That's all.

 

For DIYers, and due to the big price difference between Slimrun & Alpha (1 to 3 ratio, roughly), I think the best is  :

- buy a Slimrun 

- open the downstream plug

- cut the electrical wires providing the 16VDC from the upstream plug (thus : inactivation of boost & buck converters, thus the plugs will remain cold, not "hot" anymore)

- provide 3.3 & 5VDC from external power to the PCB. I guess it is like in the Corning (see link above, to my Corning "unboxing" => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18535-post-413881.html#pid413881 ), we have 2 voltages inside, 3.3 & 5VDC, I guess that by soldiering external PS to the right capacitors (see pic below) 2 external PS will do the job. If PS is based to LT3045 regs, clear that the current will be cleaner than the one provided by the buck converter.

 

I think I'll buy a Slimrun to test that mod, to compare a modded Slimrun to a standard Corning.

Rgds

[tgb]

Thanks cat6man,

Finally I bought a Monoprice Slimrun 20m yesteday. Hope the inside is interesting :-)

Delivery is scheduled on 12th Nov.

SQ with the Corning too too nice, and as it is not produced anymore I need a backup :-)

We'll see 1st if they sound equal (unmodiffied of course).

 

FYI, off-topic but still related to USB stream, please find here a modification I made today on my Singxer SU-1 => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-16709-post-415421.html#pid415421

The SU-1 is the USB-spdif interface downstream the Corning.

As I mention in the post, the idea of this mod is not mine but from elan120 that posted it in a very cool audio forum : AudiophileStyle ! of course ! :-)

(hope Google Translate can deal with my blabla :-) ; just ask if not)

Completly unexpected to get that SQ from a do-everything laptop.

Rgds

[tgb]

Hello cat6man,

yes, I can report something.... I screwed up when I tried to check voltage on the downstream plug => slim run is fine... but.... now it can deal with USB3 but not anymore with USB2. Crazy stupid stuff isn't it !?

 

Sorry for the delay vs my mistake => you can find my feedback here => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18535-post-422698.html#pid422698

as you can read, I was fed up with this quite crazy thing : short-cut => then => 6Gb/s usb stream, the cable can do it, but not a basic usb2 stream at 10Mb/s...

 

too late to give a full answer (3AM here), I'll give more details & feedback tomorrow if the info into the link is not clear enough (sorry, that was a pa* in the a* that stuff... in case Google may have diff to translate).

 

Anyway :

to me, no way back.

simply because (as you can think about), having the home-computer (no audio tweak inside) as a multimedia source, this is too easy to use on day-to-day basis and bring high SQ to music but to video / tv thru web / music streaming thru web etc...

=> keep in min d that SQ is key point & was enhance with proper PS to these cables.

 

Next step to go futher :

I just bought 2 Corning cables. Nice price for 2nd hands

1 will be to back my current Corning

the 2nd for modding

 

Maybe some news by next weekend (parcel will live England to France... not far away)

Rgds

[tgb]

Cool CJH

And you left the ultraRendu & network based setup to use the laptop+slimrun ?

Interesting to put the IsoRegen after the SlimRun, big diff vs w/o IsoRegen ?

Rgds

[tgb]

On 11/16/2020 at 1:43 PM, hopkins said:

Hi,

 

When you say "USB optical cable enables a new hifi paradigm", what exactly have you compared this to in order to reach that conclusion ?

 

thanks

Hi Hopkins,

I pointed out "new paradigm" because you can have a nice SQ with a do-everything PC as a source. A dedicated audio server becomes useless.

My background :

- tested NAS as music server (LPS on NAS > optical network to renderer) : worse

- I moved from NAS to audio server (NUC / fanless / LPS ; Win10 with optimized processes or Daphile as OS) : worse.

 

Cost of optical cable + LT3045 based PS = 350Eur

Standard PC as a source = no extra-cost / versatility / multimédia source

Then, see signature, I put some cash in the USB-spdif interface.

Optical cable + optimized interface => here is the good SQ.

This way : you "hear" the cash you spent.

 

I'm not saying that the current trend to build an audio server is useless.

I'm saying :

- it's expensive

- technically it is not "smart" in a sense that it's way more efficient & cheaper to clean the noise of a basic PC than building an audio server that generate a very low noise. Technically not smart because the noise is not "encrypted" in the data stream. Thus, optical isolation & reclocking (fine reclocking) after any basic server is fine enough to create a clean spdif stream.

- optical usb cable is an exemple , Grimm MU1 & Innuos Phoenix are other examples that show that "good cleaning" after a server can be dead efficient, much more cost efficient than building a dead silent audio server.

Rgds

[tgb]

On 11/16/2020 at 4:38 PM, juanitox said:

 

 

Christmas time is here ...  😀

You're right juanitox !

 

I posted that photo on purpose, to show that a "audio" server can be a basic laptop, parked on a basic shelf as workstation when not out, in the room next door (or can be in the ceiling).

It looks strange because is not a "nice audio gear", but it can streams audio thru USB... so why bother ? what else !?...

Rgds

[tgb]

On 11/16/2020 at 5:33 PM, cat6man said:

 

merci for the link to the other forum.

i'm confused by the 12v reference.  my slimrun cable inserts 5v at the upstream connector, so i don't understand the 12v to 5v buck converter issue?  is this not the slimrun cable you are working with on the other forum?

Hi cat6man,

these cables are USB cable, thus they use the 5VDC given by the computer.

In the pc-side connector, the 5V is used to convert the data stream from copper to fiber.

Then, in the upstream connector, you need to do the opposite : fiber to copper. To do that, you need power. Then, you have 2 options :

1. the simpliest : like the Fibbr Alpha USB optical cable : the upstream connector has a plug to supply power (5VDC)

2. the "most complexe" but "most convenient" for any end-user : you use the power given on PC-side. You can't use 5VDC because the cable is too long, thus if you supply 5VDC from the pc-side plug, you'll end up with 2-3?VDC at the upstream plug : not enough to run the fiber>copper conversion. So, the trick is to send from the pc-side plug a "high" voltage current to be able to have at the end connector "still" this high voltage, and then be able to convert fiber>copper.

 

I'll take time to post the mod I failed on the Fibbr, that may be interesting.

[tgb]

On 11/16/2020 at 6:02 PM, Superdad said:

Nothing “optimized for audio” here...

Of course :-)

But SQ is there to show that this technology is fine for audio.

 

You have 2 things there :

1. the optical isolation.

2. the conversion process fiber>copper

 

On paper you may think : the benefit of 1. may be crashed by 2. (due to noisy regs inside)

In practice : no.

=> 

The benefit of 1. is huge (copper based stuff like galvanic isolation can't compete)

The 2. process is not so noisy... much less than we can expect.

Quite surprising but finally SQ is very good.

 

I should receive some Corning by end of this week. After my fail in tweaking the Fibbr, I'll have a try on a Corning the cut the boost & buck converters & power the upstream connector with external 5 & 3.3V. We'll see if this mod is relevant or not.

Rgds

[tgb]

hi hopkins,

of course "new paradigm" is too much & closer to a joke than a complete break thru in hifi world 😀

 

I focus only "on one aspect of the digital chain: the quality of the USB signal" :

you talk about it like minor stuff. Why not, it is partial stuff.

But I can use a basic laptop as a server : is it minor stuff ? minor stuff to be able to put money on the usb>spdif conversion because putting $$ on server side is not relavant anymore ?

just a question...

 

There is a lot more going on after: conversion of the USB to spdif (in your case), then handling of the spdif signal in the DAC. 

yes of course. Each step can be improved, as always.

For instance in my case : the NewClassD NeutronStar2 clock on the spdif part. To see if this clock brings something, that's easy : transcoding at server-side at 24/192 to use it, or transcoding at 24/176 to use the Crystek still in place.

- before : corning powered by power bank : diff between the NeutronStar2 & Crytek was obvious but... not huge or night/day.

- after : corning powerd with good PS : diff between the 2 clocks is dead clear.

As always, a modd somewhere in the chain improve "what is downstream this modd". And the usb optical cable is in that mods category.

Same effect when I change the PS on the USB clock : improvement, good point. But without Corning upstream, the improvment would have been much much lower. Same as NeutronStar2.

 

Simply "tweaking" a Singxer to put in better power and clocks is unfortunately not sufficient. An XMOS chip will itself generate a lot of noise, irrespective of how clean the power you supply it with. This noise will spread, disrupt the clocks, etc... 

It's on my todo list. 1VDC required for the xmos chip.

SolidCore gave me the idea => his posts is there => https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/29553-my-very-mini-review-of-the-singxer-su-1-ddc/?do=findComment&comment=744476

 

Please note the SolidCore mentions "improvements" (good point), but not night/day change as you think because this bad 1VDC would pollute everything at miles around it.

I exaggerate a bit, but you too ;-)

Rgds

[tgb]

Hi hopkins,

you're right... I should ask an engineer in electronics. But none around, thus I took the 1st engineer around, myself ;-) Not in electronics but in chemical engineering. That engineer knows a bit more in chemistry / ind. processes / fluids mechanics than electronics... but he was available right away thus I said to him  : go for it ! :-)

 

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

What you don't seem to understand is that irrespective of its power supply, computer components (processors, like the XMOS) generate noise! In other words, the noise does not only come from power supplies.

What else ? Anybody knows that. Nothing new there.

so, what next ? if I follow this remark, any DAC with an xmos chip is bad stuff (because this chip kills the SQ). Why not, but there are quite numerous DAC with xmos chips on the market , for years, and quite numerous people aere happy with the SQ

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

What you are doing may provide some very marginal benefits, but the effort involved is probably not worth it. 

If there was a marginal benefit, I would not take time to post about a loosy tweak. No sense.

 

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

you should look into what serious/professional engineers are doing to address all these issues.

Thanks for the joke :-)

Honestly, are you sure we can call "serious engineer" (in electronics) that put a basic regulator to get 3.3V to power a clock ?

A clock !!!!???

That's (maybe) the most important component in any digital device !

Rgds

[tgb]

Hi,

FYI, I've posted in the French forum the mod on the Fibbr that I failed a fwe days ago => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-18535-post-428069.html#pid428069

(no slang / idoms : Google Translate should work ;-) )

 

@fds thanks for you reply. Sorry, no time, I'll reply to your post tonit.

Rgds

[tgb]

Hi hopkins,

Thanks for calling me an "amateurish" DIYer. I see it as a compliment ;-)

The  "amateurish" DIYer goes thru trial&error, he's learning, he's making assumptions that don't last for ever, he knows that he knows very few things, no brainer for him to go one way & turn around if it's finaly a wrong way...

I like that sticker on my head :-)

 

Regarding the noise generated by the xmos chip :

- I posted info above : I know, it's noisy...

- I'll power it nicely when I have time

 

In the meantime, I have a modded SU-1 that give a SQ that is miles away from the stock version

When I modd the PS on the xmos, SQ will improve. 

Fine with that.

 

Honestly, that's a bit strong to focus on xmos noise as the "SQ killer", given that no product on the market uses 1 or 2 steps linear regulation to power perfectly that chip... (I don't know about boxes >10k$... )

Rgds