Analog: Still Better?

[Confused]

Over time I have listened to some great vinyl based systems and some great digital based systems.  So if both can sound great, which is best?  I suspect that the ultimate answer is that if digital is done well, it is the best.  Digital offers lower noise, higher resolution, higher dynamic range, greater frequency response, better channel separation, and so on.

 

Undoubtedly, vinyl offers some euphonic characteristics, but if you really wanted to you could mimic these, and fine tune, in the digital domain.

 

From my own experience, I can look back to a previous system that I ran at home.  Two main sources, a Rega P25 anniversary TT with a Dynavector cartridge and a Musical Fidelity A3CD CD player.  I had quite a few recordings both on vinyl and CD, and I found a few where I much preferred the vinyl version played on the Rega, plus a few I preferred via CD on the Musical Fidelity.  Nothing strange there I think, and possibly just down to if the CD or vinyl version happens to be the better master.

 

Earlier this year I revisited some of these old vinyl favourites, now played on a rather better Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT with Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge.  Swapping to the digital version, now ripped from the original CD and streamed through the kit per my sig below, in every case the digital version was significantly better, which rather goes against my "just down to if the CD or vinyl version happens to be the better master" comment in the paragraph above.  Don't get me wrong, those old vinyl recording still sound superb, it is just that now the digital versions sound the better of the two.

 

OK - This is just a single data point of one person's ears and systems, however, objectively digital is the best, and now my subjective experience fully backs this up too.  I think if digital is "done right", with today's technology and kit, it wins by far.

[Confused]

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

Gary

 What you heard was from the 0x0002 529kb/s .aac Subscription audio stream that can be extracted after downloading the video with suitable Video S/W.

Compare that sound with the direct video that I posted. Would you rather  base a CD purchasing decision on the video alone , or from the 529kb/s stream to try and see if it sounds worthwhile ?

 

Alex

 

 

 

Is there a way to extract the vinyl version from YouTube?

[Confused]

13 hours ago, fas42 said:

People most likely will not believe this, but when a vinyl setup is getting most things right, and a digital rig is likewise - then the listening experiences, for a particular album, can easily completely match ... how can it not otherwise, since you are recreating the same musical event?

I know what you mean here, but I do not think they can ever "completely match". 

 

They might get close.  As it happens I was running through some recordings for which I have both vinyl and digital versions.  I was listening to one track, and the vinyl and digital versions sounded very similar, in terms of tonality, detail and other factors.  They did not completely match though.  With this track there was a clear difference in soundstage.  I suspect this is resulting from the small amount of crosstalk that you get with vinyl, something that is virtually non-existent with digital.  Plus, as frequencies drop, vinyl is mono.   

 

In this case, I actually subjectively preferred the soundstage effect with the vinyl version, but I suspect this is simply a case of the vinyl crosstalk "messing things up a bit" from a purely technical perspective, but then actually creating something subjectively preferable.

 

As an aside, in the digital domain you could add some crosstalk, in an attempt to get the digital side to maybe more "completely match" the vinyl.  It would be impossible to do this the other way around though. 

[Confused]

5 hours ago, Rexp said:

Could your class D amps be a bottleneck perhaps, have you tried a class A amp in this system? 

I am not sure what I wrote that gave you the impression that I have a "bottleneck"? 

 

Anyway, it is more the other way around, if we are talking pure class A, yes I have tried class A amps in my system, I have tried class AB, but I have never tried pure class D.  The Devialet amps are a class A class D hybrid.

[Confused]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Meaning, that there was a stronger sense of a soundstage with the vinyl? The rest of your post implies that; and adds the proviso that it's probably "LP distortion" - anyway, if so, then rest easy, grasshopper 😜 ... the soundstage is what's on the recording - it's up to the particular digital chain to lift its game, to match that of the vinyl ... 😉.

 

So an open question to anyone.  What would be the expected result here if I made a "needle drop" digital copy of the subject vinyl recording and played this back via the digital side of the system?

[Confused]

11 minutes ago, sandyk said:

If it was saved  at 24/96 or 24/192,which is becoming more common these days, and the digital side of your playback system was decent, then it should sound very little different to how the vinyl sounded.. This has apparently been the findings of more than a few members too.

This is my experience also.

[Confused]

50 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Comments ...?

A quick check on line reveals that this 45 rpm version is £75 in the UK.  I would be a little annoyed if I spent this much cash on vinyl and recieved such a wonky pressing.

 

I tried this versus a digital copy, and the version per this clip does sound a little cleaner and more defined I would say.

[Confused]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 I completely disagree. It's the other way around.

See my previous post from just after you posted this reply.

Many members find audio quality from a typical Laptop such as yours quite disappointing/lacklustre due to the necessary PSU compromises made to improve time between battery charges, which result in a masking of HF detail.

IOW, like heavy veils .  Which S/W player are you using, and does it play from System Memory ?

 

 P.S. 

 This could also help to explain why John Dyson and yourself had so many run ins about non decoded Dolby-A CDs and ABBA not sounding shrill to you.

Whilst the above factors might be significant at a certain level, say when using the laptop as a source for a system, I would have thought that the lap top speakers themselves whould be the largest factor here?

[Confused]

16 hours ago, hopkins said:

Here's the CD version: https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/01 CD.wav

Here's my LP rip: https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/02 LP.wav

 

Let me know what you think !

I found that to be quite an interesting comparison.  Without getting too much into the digital versus analogue debate, it actually sounded like they were slightly different mixes to me, maybe as a result of compression, or maybe something more fundamental.

 

In the early part of the CD version the solo brass sound is far more prominent.  Some might prefer this, some might prefer the more "easy listening" mix of the vinyl, this might even depend on mood.  When the "band kick in" just before 2 min, the mix seems to go the other way, with the accompanying brass instruments being far more prominent in the vinyl version, making the vinyl version a little less "easy listening" for the rest of the track.

 

I'd make two versions of the track, with the early part from the vinyl mix and the latter part from the CD, and vice versa, then select which to play according to mood.

[Confused]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Audio shops do nothing to dispel this myth. The last time I visited one of the two high end stores in Sydney there wasn't a single setup I heard there that wasn't in the awful category - so, what hope has the ordinary consumer got, when he wants to explore what's possible ...

The last time I visited a "high end" store in the UK, they had two systems running in separate demo rooms, and they both sounded good.

 

Maybe a difference between your ears and mine? Or maybe a difference between the stores, kit on offer, set-up or something else? How will we ever solve this conundrum?

[Confused]

6 hours ago, davide256 said:

run, do not walk out of any demonstration room that has multiple speakers in it😉

 

At the dealer I mentioned above, they had very many speakers, but all stored in a row outside of the demo rooms. The actual demo rooms had one pair of speakers only in each room.

 

Above conundrum solved?

 

(probably not, actually)

[Confused]

On 2/18/2022 at 3:53 AM, Rexp said:

Is it the DAC or the viny rip thats responsible for the poorer digital version.

 

I am a little puzzled by this post. Firstly, which version did you prefer? (I am not sure which was vinyl and which digital?) Secondly, what makes you think this was a vinyl rip rather than just a normal digital music file? 

 

Not wishing to "sit on the fence" here, with a quick listen on headphones, I think I preferred the second version.

 

[Confused]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:14 AM, fas42 said:

What I'm finding annoying is that the quality changes through the time period that a single version plays ... this is a common problem for higher end rigs that haven't stabilised - there's a moving target, while you listen ... do I like what it sounded like at the start of the playing, or at the end, some minutes later?

You must be more observant than I am, I did not notice this. Can you give some specific examples with times in the clip that explain what you've noticed?

[Confused]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

have to give them kudos for trying then. Did they just do a bad job of matching components? A lot of shops just match demo system gear on price.. ugh.

Not at all, per my earlier post both systems sounded great.

[Confused]

8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Now that we know both versions are sourced from vinyl, it makes more sense - tracking distortion steadily increases through the piece, and this is especially clear in the second capture, with direct LP source; a grunginess, with peak sounds, becomes more apparent, and annoying.

You can hear the increase in tracking distortion over about one and a half minutes of playback? I must admit that I cannot, perhaps a blessing for me? 

[Confused]

19 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Different things disturb different people ... there was a period several years ago when the audio friend up the road was doing a lot of tweaking of his LP setup; and all sorts of things were tried. It was then I became very aware of how the SQ altered as the needle traversed the record, building up to a sweet spot as one of the points of optimum alignment was reached, to then steadily lose that peak as the cartridge moved further inward - depending upon the overall status of reproduction this can really stand out; which seems to be the likely cause here.

I have a Linear tracking Technics SL-7 stuck on a shelf upstairs. I really should dig it out one day and see if it still works. I have never actually used it, my brother dumped it at my house for "safe keeping" when he left the country, the trouble is that he never came back. Might be fun trying head to head with my more modern but more conventional Pro-Ject.

 

You and N can borrow the SL-7 if you want, though shipping might be pricy.

 

I fully agree that different things disturb different people. It is tonal things that get to me, lack of bass, bloated bass, too much or too little in the presence range or treble, this kind of thing. You and I have debated this kind of stuff in the past, one thing I know for sure is that we have very different views on the topic, which is very likely resultant from the "different things disturb different people" effect. In fact, I suspect that the "different things disturb different people" effect might be behind a number of lively forum debates, where in fact some people are quite simply experiencing things differently to each other.

[Confused]

21 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Yep, that's a lot of it. What I'm after is the sense of "rightness" - that is, no matter the technical standard of the recording, the genre of music, the style of the piece - they all just sound, well, right. Nothing in what I hear disturbs me; the music itself is conveying its message, fully - this means, I can listen to some bizarre composition, that I have never heard before, and its integrity as a production by musicians passionate about their craft comes through.

I actually agree with every word of that.

 

Where we are different is in terms of how to achieve it, and here also, what would work for you would not work for me, and vice versa.