Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[ls13]

Hi All;

Early adopter of the Mu1 here. I've been putting it through a MMT and running directly into a Gryphon Essence Stereo Amp which powers Rockport Atria ii's. Frankly, I've been struggling a couple of years with getting the sound I want out of this setup, and relented to get a preamp. I had in my home at once, to mix and try, an Mu2, Soulnote P-3, Aesthetix Metis, and an Accuphase C3900. What I found:

The Mu2 running directly into the amp (tara lab 0.8) sounded very good. Quite a bit less treble energy than the Mu1/MMT combo, but great bass, nice tonality, pretty good dynamics, and good depth. However, the image size did shrink a bit to be mainly between my speakers. With my setup, I was not satisfied with the Mu2 alone.  I tried running the Mu2 through different pre's. Depending on the pre, the Mu2 could sound a bit rolled off, lacking some air and some higher frequency spatial cues. With one of the preamps though, that had more high end extension, it sounded amazing. In the end, the combination that suited my taste the best was the Mu1-->MMT-->Accuphase C3900--Gryphon Essence. The C3900 will arrive later this week.

At the end of the day, I think the Mu2 is fantastic, but it's sound characteristics will need to fit into the rest of the system, and match the purchaser's tastes. 

 

[ls13]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:33 PM, ls13 said:

Hi All;

Early adopter of the Mu1 here. I've been putting it through a MMT and running directly into a Gryphon Essence Stereo Amp which powers Rockport Atria ii's. Frankly, I've been struggling a couple of years with getting the sound I want out of this setup, and relented to get a preamp. I had in my home at once, to mix and try, an Mu2, Soulnote P-3, Aesthetix Metis, and an Accuphase C3900. What I found:

The Mu2 running directly into the amp (tara lab 0.8) sounded very good. Quite a bit less treble energy than the Mu1/MMT combo, but great bass, nice tonality, pretty good dynamics, and good depth. However, the image size did shrink a bit to be mainly between my speakers. With my setup, I was not satisfied with the Mu2 alone.  I tried running the Mu2 through different pre's. Depending on the pre, the Mu2 could sound a bit rolled off, lacking some air and some higher frequency spatial cues. With one of the preamps though, that had more high end extension, it sounded amazing. In the end, the combination that suited my taste the best was the Mu1-->MMT-->Accuphase C3900--Gryphon Essence. The C3900 will arrive later this week.

At the end of the day, I think the Mu2 is fantastic, but it's sound characteristics will need to fit into the rest of the system, and match the purchaser's tastes. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Lyons77 said:

I read Christiaan Punter's MU2 review (and also his preamp comparison) and he seems he finds some improvement's using a preamp with the MU2 and also with other DAC that have a volume control:   "The L1 preamp, by comparison, adds a dose of charm, spaciousness, liquidity, and flow while remaining linear and neutral. At a hefty price, I should add. But if it is purity that you are after first and foremost, then there are real benefits to skipping an external preamp altogether."

 

I'd be interested in hearing the experience of other who have run the MU2 with and without a preamp.

 

Hi, I covered this a bit in the quote above (Lyons...from Lyons CO? Were you on the WTB forum?).  I have come to view a pre amp as an illogical, necessary evil to ultimately "paint" the sound and imaging in whatever way draws you in. The Mu2 direct was much better than a Tambaqui direct, in my system, but the soundstage was still contracted quite a bit in the 2D stage, and the Mu2 benefitted from an appropriately matched preamp. It wasn't satisfactory for me, but these are individual tastes and definitely subject to the laws of diminishing returns. Will be curious to see if other users have different experiences based on their amplifiers. One nice thing about the Mu2 is its compact nature, which makes it easy to ship and demo. 

[ls13]

Hi,

I picked the Accuphase pre using the Mu1-->Tambaqui combination. The Mu2-->Soulnote P-3 did not sound good at all.  It sounded rolled off and there was very poor imaging/localization. The Mu2-->Aesthetix Metis was excellent, significantly better than the Mu2 alone. 

My Tara Lab Cabling and Gryphon Essence do not emphasize higher treble energy. The Tambaqui does come off a bit brighter. When the Mu2 is in a setting with other "darker" components, it didn't perform as well. If the components have good imaging, and some treble extension, I found the Mu2 complimentary in a good way. 

All pre's gave a larger 2D soundstage compared to the Mu2 alone. The Mu did have good imaging depth on its own. 

Hope this helps, and look forward to other folks data points in their systems.

 

[ls13]

Pretty classic "pace" for one of Bill's videos. I've worked with him for a number of years. I respect him. I feel he prefers pretty highly resolving systems, thus his history of Auralic and YG speakers. I do agree with most of what he is saying, although I feel "better" is more relative.  As I posted earlier in this thread, I recently had the chance to hear a Mu2 vs Mu1/MMT in my system. I would agree the with the Mu1/MMT the soundstage is larger in height and width. I thought the Mu2 had reasonable depth. The Mu1/MMT emphasizes some higher frequencies more that the Mu2. If you have a bright system that you wish to tone down, the Mu2 might be the best match. I also felt the Mu2 worked better with a true pre in the chain. 

I think the decision might be a personal and system based one more than an absolute. For my ears and system matching, the Mu1/MMT was the better route, although YMMV. Knowing Bill's tastes in sound, I would clearly predict he would prefer the Mu1/MMT.

My real go to guy for reviews is Christian Punter in Hifi Advice. I almost always agree with him. He also looked at the comparision.

[ls13]

3 hours ago, PYP said:

Your post and others has me wondering about choosing a preamp for my current setup.  Using the Tambaqui into the MM amps provides plenty of dynamics for my tastes, but your excellent preamp comparison and Christian Punter's review (he is careful and objective listener) of preamps has me wondering about the benefits of adding a preamp.   

 

For me, any addition that improves timbre and makes the gear further disappear would be welcome.  If you don't mind me asking, how did the MU2 compare with the MU1+MMT in those areas?  And do you think a well-matched preamp would increase those?  

Again, the Mu2 has excellent timbre. One has to requilibrate going from the MMT, as there is significantly less high frequency in the Mu2. I didn't care for the The Mu2's soundstage when feeding directly into my amp, but the timbre sounded good, and it had significantly more bass than the MMT driving the amp directly. The overall sound was dependent on the preamp. In one case, using a warmer pre, the Mu2 lacked air and imaging, and sounded a bit too dull. I think one just has to try it in their system. 

[ls13]

10 minutes ago, PYP said:

Good advice, which I am taking.  Given my fondness for Mola Mola gear, the Makua preamp would be an appropriate demo.  So, will try my current setup (MU1 + Tambaqui) with the Makua and then the MU2, with and without the Makua.  

 

Will be a few weeks before I get the demo pieces.  Very much looking forward to learning what a transparent preamp adds (used a tubed preamp ages ago) and what the MU2 sounds like in comparison to the Tambaqui.  The demo provides  me with an expectation-free environment.  Just listen to music and choose the gear that provides the greatest engagement with the music.  

 

My audio education continues...

I think that comment makes sense. I have read that the Makua is a bit on the cool side. I think it will complement the Mu2 well. Look forward to hearing your results!

[ls13]

7 minutes ago, Ronnie112 said:

Fourth month of playing my music through the MU2 and still enjoying every minute with it. You know it does something really good when you rediscover your library (which you know so well) and just make so much more sense out of it. Was just listening to the Kyteman orchestra (a Dutch band) recorded with all vintage equipment. On most of my past listening sessions I liked it, but so much was happening that sometines I just lost it somewhere. With the MU2 it feels like I'm in the recording. Can hear the large choir members breathing between the parts, can see the venue and where everyone is and just get it so much better altogether.  I think this is what our hobby is all about. Thanks Grimm team, for giving me some much more pleasure enjoying my music!

Hi Ronnie, can you remind us of your system? Thanks

[ls13]

4 minutes ago, Ronnie112 said:

Please look at my profile for a full overview. Recently added a Purtian DC blocker/filter, only for the amp. And iRAP decoupling platforms and wonderwood underboards. Will update my profile accordingly soon.

Got it. Interesting set up!

[ls13]

On 3/7/2024 at 11:27 AM, janN said:

Today I received the MU2 replacing my MMT/MU1 combination.

Old Roon database and music is installed and I did already some listening through headphones ( Focal Utopia).

First impressions are good.

There is difference between the MU2 and MMT/MU1.

I don't know or this is caused by the headphone output of the MU2 which I think it is "better" than headphone output of the MMT.

Maybe because of the analogue pre-amp of the MU2

Tomorrow I'll play through my amp and speakers. 

Looking forward to your listening impressions!

[ls13]

9 minutes ago, Low325 said:

No0o0o0o0 don’t convince me to acquire one!  Timing is not good! 😂 

I can tell you, with certainty, the MU2 is better than running the MMT directly into an amp. (I guess at least my amp).

On the other hand, the MMT sounds pretty great with a preamp in the chain. 

[ls13]

7 hours ago, janN said:

I have the MU2 now for 1 week and kept it running all the time.

The MU2 is directly connected into my power amp, my MMT/MU1 combination was also connected without pre-amp.

At first listening session I was a little bit disappointed.  I heard a difference in the lows, maybe less lows?

But after listening for several days the tonal balance of the MU2 outperformed the MMT/MU1 and is superb in my opinion. There is more space between voices and sometimes I heard details I never noticed before. 

After all I'm very satisfied with the MU2.

 

I had some of the same impressions. For me, going directly from the Mu1/MMT into a Gryphon Essence Stereo amp, I had a marked attenuation of Bass, and a sharper edges to imaging, with a rather flat soundstage behind the speakers. Putting the Mu2 directly, I experienced more bass (different from you), and a more natural  tonality, that didn't rely on treble accentuation for detail or spatial cues. It really was quite good. For my system, with the Mu2 alone, the 2D size of the soundstage did shrink. When adding the Accuphase C3900 to the Mu1/MMT, I had the good qualities of the Mu2, but a bigger soundstage, tighter more dynamic bass, while retaining great imaging and a natural sound. System synergy is real. I'm no longer willing to "roll the dice" without auditioning components in the system. Too much work to be constantly moving components in and out, and system synergy/user preference is a big deal.

[ls13]

At the risk of oversimplification, I feel the MMT/Mu1 has more high frequency emphasis than the Mu2. My system was erring toward being analytical, and the insertion of the Accuphase 3900 was a good compensation for this. The Mu2 directly driving my Gryphon Essence Stereo did improve image density, tonal quality, quantity of bass, and kept good depth compared to Mu1/MT. However, it wasn't as dynamic, had a smaller width/height soundstage, bass was more loose, and a little less air than the Mu1/MMT/3900 combo.

If your system is already neutral to warm, I believe the Mu2 will move this further in that direction. I listened to both the Mu2 and MMT/Mu1 with three different pre's, an Aesthetix Metis (Mu2 sounded good here), Soulnote P-3 (Mu-2 in this combination lacked air, energy, and excitement), and the C3900 (as above, Mu1/MMT and this pre combined for large soundstage, better image density and shape, better dynamics, better defined bass). All of the differences were not subtle. 

As we design our systems, we aren't just looking for truth, we are trying to paint the illusion of music that reaches us emotionally. That will be different for many of us. There is a big difference between the sound of the MMT/Mu1 combo and Mu2. Which is better will be determined by your other components and your tastes.

@aangen, I think you are misguided by trying to make all these decisions on your own. You really should be listening more to Jay's audio lab and making all of your decisions based on his input.

[ls13]

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I know the technology very well. It sounds nothing like what the mixing engineer hears in the studio, unless the plugin is used during mixing. 
 

Im all for people using this, but to claim 

Is 100% preposterous. 

 

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I know the technology very well. It sounds nothing like what the mixing engineer hears in the studio, unless the plugin is used during mixing. 
 

Im all for people using this, but to claim 

Is 100% preposterous. 

Is there value in responses like this? As a parent, I try to avoid reactions like this. Aangen is known for his humorous, individualistic style. I disagree with public dismissals like this. Even if you own this site.

 

[ls13]

17 minutes ago, aangen said:

LOL! You said that to be funny I hope.
I have a Gryphon Commander Preamp, Gryphon Apex Amp, Gryphon Ethos Transport DAC, Vivid G1 Spirit speakers. Jay is catching up slowly. But his attention span is unmeasurably short.  You had to be joking.

I'm extremely serious. Audio equipment is to be judged by size, price tag, weight, and extreme sound effects. Musical enjoyment should be low down on the list of considerations. 

[ls13]

4 minutes ago, aangen said:

Well to start with, a plugin being required when the recording was made is absolutely without basis. This demonstrates you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not going to try to convince you, there is nothing to gain from that. I know better.

But your behavior in this manner brings me back to USENET battles from the mid 90's. I am embarrassed for you.
Respectfully.  

[ls13]

This is exciting, as the Mu2 is getting out there. I'm excited to hear @aangen comment on his experiences. I like Michael's reviews at Twittering Machines. I also really, really respect Christian Punter's views on Hifi Advice

HiFi Advice Mu2 Review

 

 

[ls13]

8 minutes ago, PYP said:

those two reviews are interesting when read consecutively.   

 

Yes, same but different. I think both point to the Mu2 being a magical combination of "fleshed out" but not lacking any resolution, while at the same time,  having a bit more "musical" treatment of leading edge high frequency than the Mu1 or Mu1/MMT.  I shared the view on preamp vs none with Punter. This certainly has to do with component interaction and listening tastes (ie diminishing returns for sure). 

Hearing what @aangen hears with and without the Commander Pre, into the Apex Amp will be fascinating. 

[ls13]

1 hour ago, stevebythebay said:

I'm interested in bringing an MU2 into my system to find out how it performs.  Would directly feed into my Spectral equipment.  Today, the MU1 feeding my dCS stack is great.  I'll be surprised if the MU2's DAC will come close to what I'm hearing today.  But being an audiophile comes with surprises.  That's our lot in this life.

Nice system. Love Spectral.

[ls13]

27 minutes ago, aangen said:

My review of the MU2 versus the Tambaqui:

 

(It’s on a shelf, out of my system)

Have you listened to it directly into the Apex?

[ls13]

I guarantee it will sound better with the commander. It will be valuable for the rest of the world to hear that though....

Going direct, the soundstage shrinks and the sound is a bit breathless...

[ls13]

On 3/23/2024 at 11:10 PM, aangen said:

Sorry about that Terry! 
PYP:

Some of the time, some of the time not. I am very impressed with the unmodified sound of the MU2. I think a few of my DACs are going to rest for a while.

Amplifier issues

In a normal setup, it would take seconds to hook the MU2 to the amp. The MU2 hovers above and just behind the amp. But I share my audio room with a Rabbit. And her favorite thing to chew on is cables, any cables. I built a fence, she got inside and ate cables. I fortified. She was sitting back there munching on cables. The fence system I have now she hasn’t got through. So the back of the amp has a safety system making it a half hour project to get access. It is so much easier to just sit here and bathe in Roon Radio.

 

For those who might suggest removal of the rabbit, I will say I like Bunnies equally to fine audio.

Deleted

 

[ls13]

deleted

[ls13]

23 minutes ago, Datka said:

How about sound between the 2 ? I’m sure you’ll figure out Roon related technical difficulties, tell us about sound . 

+1

[ls13]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

well, we all have different ways of having fun. 😉   Ane Brune is one of my favorite vocalists.  👍

 

My MU2 has only been here a few days, but two things are already clear:  The MU2 is fun to listen to and it has an uncanny ability to capture the vibe of a recording.  Since I enjoyed the MU1 + Tambaqui so much, I had second thoughts when I made the purchase.  But I couldn't be happier now.  This is a very, very special piece of gear.  

At this point, I might be the only person who is sticking with their Mu1 and MMT! I've been very happy with my current sound. There was no further upgraditis. Not until, of course, Rockport announced the Lynx....

[ls13]

Just now, Mike123 said:

I haven’t tried it yet.. I have a tube amp which probably adds color. 

In my system, the soundstage was larger and the bass dynamics and control were better with a preamp in the chain. Not that the Mu2 was not good on its own. Relating to the earlier post by @Yivez, an MMT in the chain definitely adds more high frequency energy, compared to the more neutral Mu2.

I feel bass dynamics are quite variable, and component specific, when trying to run without a dedicated pre. @Yivez, what is the rest of your system?