Schiit Audio Releases its Unison USB Upgrade

[beerandmusic]

On 5/18/2020 at 8:49 PM, AudioDoctor said:

SO is this device going to be a CD player? A Server? What exactly?

 

SD player would be nice...especially since sd cards can hold a LOT these days...cd not so interesting.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

IMO, that makes even less sense unless you're making a portable device.

 

why?  sd card may not be as easy for noise or other reasons, but certainly would be a much more useful product than a cd player in terms of quantity and convenience.

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, baldr said:

It is quite the challenge to qualify the USB output of the transport with the hundreds of D/A converters in the wild. No such problem with S/Pdif, as it is a standardized input/output protocol, with specific control bits reserved.

The USB, on the other hand, has standard descriptors and handshake speeds for both speeds of digital audio. Other unusual formats, such as dsd (not picking on them – there are many others) have descriptors and handshake protocols which vary in speed and assignment. It therefore becomes a complex problem to interface our USB output with a wide variety of D/a converters, which only begins with access to those devices. The generally proprietary nature of our industry, makes access problematical.

The gizmo we have built is a two input USB switcher with our Unison USB output. This will allow the user to verify if our USB out works with their converter. It is also a much smaller box than a transport to utilize when we arrive at early beta times. As quoted above the transport remains in alpha. If it is not already obvious, the product is a CD transport. This is a good time for me to restate my opinion that CD playback with our Unison CD Host and Input is the finest digital audio I have heard.  I know, I know, it is all ones and zeros, no??  There is something else in play, since streamers are just NOT the same.  When I figure out what's different, maybe I'll be rich. 

it's all about timing

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Because unless it's a portable device, my entire library won't fit on an SD card for one, and for two, why? It is a pointless complication.

and it will fit on a cd?  How much of it do you actually listen to?  I am sure you can fit the mass majority of what you listen to regularly on a single sd card.  I rarely ever plug in a cd anymore unless it is to rip it.

 

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

This implies that you can build the worlds best sounding one box CD player with analog outputs today as no USB circuits need be involved. Is that right?

 

There are many serious audiophiles that will toss their birds nest of streaming gear in a heartbeat for such a solution if it also has a decent remote.

 

BTW - Personally I am not going back to CD playback, ever. My Modius arrives on Monday.

 

Would a dac designer design a device that doesn't require a DAC?

The concept is great for a transport that uses an external dac, but the conveniency of a cd player will never catch....

Engineers need to figure out the timing why a transport could sound better than a flat file....do it with a sd card or ssd drive then you would have something.

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Here you go

https://hifiman.com/products/category/1

 

none will have a chord or shiit dac embeded..I can show you more cd players.

 

would be nice to have a shelf system with a sd or ssd player with sonics of streamers at a low price (smile)....just me, but i have no desire for the inconvenience of a cd player even though i stil have over 600 cd's after selling off twice as many...i am with lemitche in that regard...i will never go back to cd as my media of choice.

[beerandmusic]

8 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

ok... Argue your point with Schitt. I'm not the one making a CD player.

 

Also, CDs are limited to 44.1K...although many will suggest that encompasses our hearing, yet many flat files exist much higher, where a CD medium won't cut it.

 

I am not going to argue with Mike...he knows what he knows and that is his profession, and he makes the best music he can with his knowledge.  PS, i have hinted at DSD before and he has no interest in pursuing flagship dsd dacs.

 

He has experience already with both CD transports and PCM dacs which is where he excels and is understandable.  He is probably getting older and doesn't want to diversify from what he knows best. 

 

There has to be a reason why so many people suggest DSD over enet is currently best possible sounding architecture though, but usb is a whole lot more convenient.

 

There are always trade-offs.

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, matthias said:

 

IMHO, the best sounding architecture is either UHQ server via USB into DAC like Taiko Extreme or CDT via USB into DAC like Schiit with Unison.

 

Matt

most people that have tried, would argue take if you took the same dac you suggest off of an enet solution like optical rendu or sotm that it would be better....inre cdt, it's just not practical for conveniency anymore....why couldn't schiit do a sd or ssd transport? Then it would be interesting...jmo

 

While you are here though, i have a question regarding the unison usb....

with the unison usb, does it isolate well enough where it doesnt matter how noisy the pc is?  And why would it make a difference what computer (e.g. you mention some uhq server?) if you use a unison usb if it truly isolates?  Is there still a probelm with usb timing or something else where the pc would make a difference even with unison usb?

 

The way unison is marketed, it sounds as though it doesn't make a difference what pc is being used if it isolates and regenerates??

 

No one has ever provided a logical reason (at least that makes sense to me), that if everyone agrees that the digital music is recieved by the dac correctly, and if all there is that is transmitted is:::

 

digital music (everyone agrees the dac receives this correctly)

reference voltage (unison isolates and provides it's own)

noise (galvanically isolated)

 

 what difference anything would make....and it seems the dac engineers don't know the answer either?? 

 

Even if you can't completely isolate all noise, if it recieves the bits correctly and it regenerates the bits without audible noise....etc...

 

There is still some part of the technology missing for it to make sense?

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, davide256 said:

It would have to support blue ray and SACD to be of any interest. If it comes out without DSD over USB support there would be nothing new/worthwhile about it.

 

At $1K it should be possible to build a good transport, with digital only output but I am skeptical that they understand the CD transport difficulties at the depth that Linn did.

I  do not  think however thats the right design choice... kind of a "Spruce Goose" outdated approach.

 

PS Audio's approach makes  sense, where you read the disc into memory as a computer file to eliminate  transport issues and stay purely in the digital domain for computer file data

before attempting DAC audio  data output conversion. Then you can reduce all the problems of computer audio into a much simpler set of variables for precision tuning by jettisoning media player overhead and other unneeded processes and hardware associated with regular computer USB sources. The trick being how do you satisfy the copyright lawyers for SACD, etc.

i am sure it won't support sacd as Mike is not an advocate of dsd

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

 

If the Schiit does CD playback right that would be enough for me.

Interesting will be a comparison with the new Denafrips Avatar CD transport which is roughly in the same price range.

But I would really appreciate if the Schiit is a game-changer for CD transports and does sound better than the competition.

 

Matt

 

If he could add an sd card slot to it, i would be a buyer, but not just for a cd player...jmo.

 

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

It will not play the DSD layer of sacds. CD only. No blu ray either. 

Here you say CD only, but in another post you say it will do more than spin cd's, which gained back my interest....so which is it, will it only play one medium or will it play another medium as well?  Or did you mean it will do more like just another feature of a cd player (like usb vs analog out)?

[beerandmusic]

37 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Maybe an USB-Reclocker?

 

Matt

 

We already know it has usb unison which includes a "reclocker" and is already in all of their current dacs, no?...

 

I guess if you don't have a schiit dac, or another dac that has a reclocker, and feel the need for one, then it may be desired by a few, but i would rather see an sd card reader or usb input slot for a thumb drive included....then i would be a buyer.

[beerandmusic]

13 minutes ago, jiminlogansquare said:

Me too. And to get more specific, what he said was he was holding off on an opticalRendu, which might suggest a fiber optic network player. Although that probably doesn't mean it is going to duplicate all or even any other features of a Rendu device, such as Roon endpoint, etc. But a world of possibilities, and an intriguing clue, are just the sort of grist one wishes for one's mill; no?

 

I am sure it won't have optical, network, or dsd support...i have never seen anything with those technologies in his forte....but maybe a usb slot for thumbdrive?  That is the best thing i could think of given his past products, and would be worthwhile imho...but likely just a reclocker, which we already know it has unison, so no surprise there.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

You're holding off on a network player to play CDs...

 

You don't see a problem there?

 

Network is not schiit's forte...you can only specialize in so many things for a company their size.

I think a cd will be great if it delivers, just not my interest either....but don't knock it until the reviews are out.

But even if it got phenominal reviews, for the money, i don't want another spinner.  Would rather have my marantz sacd player or an oppo with more features....but for the purist that enjoys listening to cd's, it may be the ticket.

 

I do believe it would be in mikes forte to be able to provide a thumb drive input at some point in his life though, and that i would look forward to.

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

This is a testing gadget to see if Unison USB works with non Schiit DACs. Think of it as a Unison Eitr. It is not a commercial product and can be used before the transport is ready. This unit is in beta but the transport in alpha. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

if that is all there is to it, he could make a unison eitr without a cd transport for much less, and may be a bigger seller.

[beerandmusic]

...hmmm...thinking....maybe he has figured out the whole timing thing, why a spinner can sound better than other playing methods...i am not willing to knock it until the verdict is out....i have seen crazier things in my engineering lifetime....

 

Any audio engineers here know why spinners sometimes sound better than playing from a player even if using the same dac?  We all know about how power can cause havoc, but is there something unique about timing that an external clock couldn't do?

 

Maybe it uses a spinner as a clock (smile)>

 

I know Mr. Moffat is probably one of, if not the most talented in the forte that he does excel in, and I just hope that sometimes before he dies, he at least provides a usb slot for a thumbdrive...but i guess that would require software for access....maybe he could team with someone.

 

Edit to add...that would make a great team...sonore + schiit (smile)...they could make a hell of a product together.  I am not as keen on dsd as i once was, now that i think i understand the benefits of upsampling more now. 

 

 

[beerandmusic]

On 6/8/2020 at 6:26 PM, Superdad said:

 

Come on guys, it really is not that hard to guess what Schiit transport will have and do:

• CD-ROM data mode playback of CDs (as opposed to variable speed EFM, Eight-to-fourteen modulation);
• 100Mbps RJ45 copper Ethernet "input" for playing PCM files. Network/endpoint player/software protocol unknown, but you can be sure they will try to make it as compatible as possible with popular desktop player client user interfaces (iTunes, Roon, JRiver, DLNA/UPnP, whatever) as Schiit has zero interest in becoming a software company.
• USB out to a DAC. The trick here, and clearly what they have said they are working on now is to get their USB host s/w (which will be flashed into their PIC32 at power-on) to be as UAC2 compliant as possible so they can be more broadly compatible with non-Unison USB DACs such as typical XMOS, etc.  Expect firmware updates to be required once they have a thousand units in the field.

Those of who who imagine anything significantly more elaborate than the above don't know Schiit. 

 

If they do it well as described, I might even buy one!

There is very few reasons (other than power supply isolation and a few other factors) that data-mode playback of CDs can't equal stored file playback. And I for one often wish I could just shove a new disc in and enjoy it. Don't even care about meta-data retrieval since I have eyes and can look at the jewel case or booklet to see the name of track number 5 or whatever.

 

I am "EXTREMELY" surprised you think it will have an enet port??  What gives you that idea?  Sounds like insider trading to  me??  I have never known Mike for including ENET on any past products??  This certainly is welcome news if true, but "I HIGHLY DOUBT IT" unless you have heard something from whispers??  Very curious as to why you would think it would have an enet port????

 

PCM only, for sure...and I am ok with that these days....In past I would have never considered something that didn't support DSD, but with little knowledge I "think" I have gained, I am actually leaning more back toward PCM these days.  If it has ENET, and under $1K I am a buyer for sure....i only hope my belief that you are very wrong is incorrect and that you have heard something through the grapevine, and that it indeed has enet, but i won't get my hopes up on that one.

[beerandmusic]

On 6/8/2020 at 10:11 PM, feelingears said:

We have many criteria for sound quality. One aspect I've found lowly CDs to beat file-based playback is leading edge dynamics, in my system. Annoying!

 

The one thing I have long and am still currently experiencing is that the power supplies of the digital signal path are critical. Jason and company don't seem to be true believers in the "last mile" of power, unfortunately. 

in my thinking power "shouldn't be that critical based on the suggested fact that DACS receive their bits accurately and even if they didn't it wouldn't be an subtle change in SQ, but a dropout.  A competent DAC design should be able to provide their own reference voltage, isolate usb noise, and reclock the "near perfect bits"....not to mention the final output is "wave shaped"....but i am still "open"  to accept any "logical" reasoning someone can debate with me that differ from my own views...

 

If a DAC gets the bits near perfectly, and the only function of the dac is to shape those bits into an accurate analog waveform out, then the DAC is not doing it's job if it cannot compensate for noise.

[beerandmusic]

On 6/8/2020 at 6:26 PM, Superdad said:

 

• 100Mbps RJ45 copper Ethernet "input" for playing PCM files. Network/endpoint player/software protocol unknown, but you can be sure they will try to make it as compatible as possible with popular desktop player client user interfaces (iTunes, Roon, JRiver, DLNA/UPnP, whatever) as Schiit has zero interest in becoming a software

 

inre client user interface, you mention jriver as separate than DLNA...does jriver have a network protocol different than DLNA?

DLNA has issues, and I have always wondered if there were any other windows based players that supported enet that wasn't DLNA?  I know roon and hqplayer have their own proprietary, but curious if there any other windows mainstream network players besides DLNA?

 

It sure would be nice if you could just operate a music player from a web browser that didn't have the misgivings of DLNA?

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Aurender can stream to its own zones using an Aurender ACS and Aurender servers. This uses robust file sharing protocol CIFS behind the scenes. 

Thanks for this tidbit...i would probably be willing to budget up to $1k for a streamer (which is why i got excited about superdad's belief Schiit will provide an enet port), and I know that aurender is out of my budget, but it got me googling "CIFS WEB MUSIC PLAYER" and so far i have found samba for android....will keep looking...maybe some day my concepts will come to fruition.

 

A web player that uses this "CIFS" sounds "groovy".

[beerandmusic]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Aurender can stream to its own zones using an Aurender ACS and Aurender servers. This uses robust file sharing protocol CIFS behind the scenes. 

PS- did you like the interface?  Roon sounds like good concept, but sounds bloated and doesn't allow file browsing, and requires subscription.....

[beerandmusic]

46 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I love Aurender and use it every day. 

Is it your main method for critical listening?

I would have thought roon w/hqplayer engine would have been?

 

PS, i know you have to keep all the vendors happy, so would understand if you can't answer (grin)

 

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don’t have a main method. I need to use everything. 

smile...before you answered, i edited my previous post above....(wink)

figured it would be a political answer.

 

surely you have a favorite...

[beerandmusic]

^^^ Reminds me of a audiophile group meeting i went to in Rancho Bernardo...One of the people that came was a "retired" editor for a main magazine (i think it may have been stereophile...but don't quote me)...but the biggest thing i got out of that meeting was when he publicly acknowledged how happy he is to be retired where he can openly talk about his true feelings about everything, and didn't have to get creative with his use of words....I guess I always realized that, but it was just entertaining for someone in the profession to come out and say it publicly....I wish I noted his name. 

[beerandmusic]

45 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Back on topic...

Having forgotten this, I laughed when I read one of  his recent contributions here as @baldr. I finally figured out that the owner of a company named Schiit, use of the common phrase "sounds like shit" may not be the best marketing move. 

😁

 

depends....can be "good schitt" or "badass schitt" ...whatever he did,, seems that it worked well for marketing.