Differences in sound: DAC vs. DAC + Pre-amplifier

[mevdinc]

In my personal experience I always preferred going direct from DAC to my active system.
Of course, for this to work DAC has to have a very good volume control.
 

[mevdinc]

On 5/24/2020 at 10:24 PM, SoundSparks said:

Dear experts:
I have been following this fruitful discussion closely and found it very informative. My experience auditioning Lindemann musicbook:10 DSD in two quality setups (PASS Labs and Simaudio MOON power and pre) clearly demonstrates I was unable to distinguish reliably DAC direct vs. preamp mode. It “seems” I preferred DAC direct in PASS setup, and preamp mode with Simaudio MOON. I can offer no explanation here, unfortunately enough…

I have the Musicbook 20 DSD, and Lindemann preamp section is well regarded. I am perfectly happy with the SQ.

[mevdinc]

New Lumin X1 has the digital volume Leedh integrated; lossless digital technology. 
I have been waiting for the Leedh digital volume implementation for sometime, and I hope most DACs use. Absolutely no need for an additional preamp for me, as I only listen to digital sources.
There's a review over on 6moons website.

[mevdinc]

2 hours ago, barrows said:

I am curious, where did you get the information that the X-1 has an LeedH volume control implementation?

Read the review over at 6moons, I didn't post the link, as I wasn't sure if it was against form rules.
From what I gather from the review is that this is something Lumin did very recently.

Anyway, Chris also shared a link to the information. 
I really look forward to hearing a DAC with the Leedh digital volume control.

[mevdinc]

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Wish this would've been implemented when I had the X1 :~(

 

Cool development. 

Chris,
Since it seems Lumin allows for a firmware upgrade across all the products, can you not do the same with your X1? Or is it just too expensive?

[mevdinc]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I had to send the X1 back :~(

That's a shame, I thought it was a simple software implementation and upgrade.

[mevdinc]

1 hour ago, Madra said:

It is.

What Chris is saying is that he sent the X1 back after finishing his review and not for a Leedh upgrade.

Of course, that's exactly what he said, silly me. LoL
 

[mevdinc]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Agree, 

AFAIK, for applying the Leedh VC DSD must be converted to DXD and then back to DSD.

Jussis algorithms are much more sophisticated, AFAIK he does VC for DSD in DSD domain.

AFAIK, no Leedh VC for Audirvana.

 

Matt

At one point it was said that Audirvana would be one of the early adapters. But, still no news.

[mevdinc]

Leedh digital volume is supposed to be lossless that's why the reviewer seems to be very impressed by what he heard. As he says even the best preamp does something to the sound and alters it in someway. Whereas the lossless digital volume inside the DAC seems to provide the best result.

Hopefully Chris can review the new Lumin X1 and share his findings.

And, also hopefully @damien78 can shed some light on the Leedh situation as far as Audirvana implementation is concerned.
Having Leedh in software player such a Audirvana would be another great option to have. This option would work with any DAC.

[mevdinc]

10 hours ago, barrows said:

The above is only true if the LeedH volume control was actually superior to what Audirvana already does....

Hi Barrows,

Of course, that goes without saying, my assumption is that it is truly lossless, that's the claim and the reviewer seems to swear by the results.
I guess the best way to find out is to compare it with the software volume control implemented by Audirvana, HQ Player, Roon and others. And, of course, digital volume control is also implemented in some DACs too. Again the reviewer states that Lumin/Leedh combination is better than the Mola Mola Tambaqui's implementation.

This seems to be an interesting subject to examine further and see more results and opinions.
Hopefully Chris can make it happen soon, so we can all ready here.
 

[mevdinc]

There are quite a few very good all-in-one DACs out there with builtin pre and analog volume control. Some DACs even provide one analog input which is what I need.

I have been using such DACs with my active speaker system for a long time with satisfaction. 

[mevdinc]

6 hours ago, EvilTed said:

@Kal Rubinson

 

There point I'm trying to make is there is no principal for the need or not for a preamp.

If it make things sound better, then use one.

One cannot simply be reductionist in opinion and state unequivocally that digital is better without.

At least in my experience, this has never been the case.

 

ET

This is a very subjective and also very personal matter plus a question of additional costs for some people.
In my own experience, I always prefer DAC direct into my active system. I simply try to avoid having another unit in the signal path if possible. There are lots of good DACs with built-in pre or volume control.
And yes, whatever we think works best for us is the best choice.