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Building a DIY Music Server


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58 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

The classic LPS uses an unregulated LPS plus a regulator stage.

The Nenon/Taiko PS uses an unregulated LPS plus the Taiko DC-DC ATX.

 

>>>The regulator stage has a similar effect as the DC-DC SMPS converter.

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

Right, but I was looking for an explanation of how this is so.  Clearly until now we've supplied DC-ATX adapters with regulated, even double-regulated DC.  I suppose part of the purpose of this drill is to experiment and find out.

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1 hour ago, dctom said:

I don't know,  when you read reviews the emphasis is usually on the DAC often the reviewer is using a lap top or average commercial streamer. On other forums other than here,  DACs draw more attention than streamers, just my take on it. The exception being the extreme!

 

Some theorize because the server is more upstream it is the more important.  I think Nenon's answer is good here, particularly because I daresay nobody has evaluated everything.  In my system, the role of the server is more subtle, but the DAC was quite expensive.  Emile might say the server is more important (in fact he did to me at one point), and Jonathan at MSB might say they've isolated the interface such that server quality shouldn't matter -- "all you need is a MacBook or a NUC."  In the end, both matter, it's just a matter of degree, and for most of us budgetary considerations kick in.

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16 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Agree. You can't buy an Extreme for a $500 DAC and expect a stellar performance. Similarly, an excellent DAC might perform even better with an excellent source or may not depending on the design of the DAC. Its very use case specific with no clear answer to which is more important.

 

I couldn't keep my Extreme due to pandemic exigency, and had to rollback to an i9/Z490/HDPlex server.  Not a bad server at all, powered by the HDP DCATX and a cheap AC-DC converter, and I could live with it.  I upgraded the internal wiring with Ghent's best, and was just about to upgrade the power when Nenon announced this project.  But I frequently wonder about the psychology of discontentment.  On the other hand, there is legitimate desire for technological advance.

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On the DAC v. server discussion, another aspect is timing, along with budget, as I suspect most of us can't just keep upgrading indefinitely.  For instance, I've been an audiophile for over 30 years, I'm nearing retirement with very finite resources, and when I decided to go all-in for a DAC there was no Extreme (along with its significant findings and further questions).  I also speculated that server technology was most likely to significantly advance before DAC technology.  Seems like the Extreme and this DIY project could prove that out.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/27/2021 at 3:20 AM, Nenon said:

 

No, not at all. 

 

First, I don't really buy into the whole concept of a well isolated endpoint from the server. The idea sounds really good and logical but never worked well for me in practice. It's just like the concept that DAC manufacturers have been trying to convince us for years - the USB input is galvanically isolated and reclocked, so the quality of the server does not matter. No need to explain to the people following this thread that a well-designed source (server/endpoint/whatever you want to call it) makes a big difference. There is a really good reason servers like Innuos, Taiko, PinkFaun, Antipodes, etc. exist and cost so much. Arguably, they could make as much difference as a DAC (yes, even when connected to that same DAC with galvanically isolated USB input and reclocked signal). Anyone with a resolving enough system who has switched from a Mac MINI or a laptop to one of these well designed servers has experienced that. 

 

So, if a galvanically isolated USB input with a reclocker does not work, why do we think that we can "isolate" a server from the endpoint and make the endpoint immune to the server quality? From all my experiments, the conclusion has always been the same: "we can't". I've tried everything I could think of - fiber ethernet, fiber ethernet with state of the art clocks, fiber ethernet with state of the art clocks and state of art power supplies... and state of the art switches... and network cards.... and cables... and power conditioners... and state of the art motherboard clocks, powered by state of the art power supplies and cables... and different transceivers... and so on and so on. 

 

I don't know exactly why ethernet isolation does not work, just like I don't know exactly why a galvanically isolated and reclocked USB input on a DAC does not work as expected. But here are some examples that may give us a hint. Let's talk about an endpoint for a second - the last computer that is connected to the DAC. It may be receiving a data stream from the network (i.e. from a Roon Core) or playing music locally. 

1. In many cases, my experience with local music playback has been that disconnecting the network cable leads to a sound quality improvement shortly after the disconnect. That suggests that some noise is getting into the server from the network.

2. I have noticed that unnecessary network activity while playing music deteriorates the sound quality.

  2a. Euphony / Stylus caches the track you are playing and minimizes the network activity to a minimum. During some of my tests I noticed that opening multiple web browsers pointing to the Euphony page would degrade the sound quality. That was a very interesting experiment. The more web browser windows you open (pointing to Euphony), the easier it is to hear that. At some point I remember opening 50 windows on multiple computers. It turned out Euphony was using Ajax to update the time lapse interval display every second or so. That extra network traffic was enough to cause some sound quality degradation. BTW, I reported this to Euphony and they added an option to disable that traffic. 

  2b. When I isolated my endpoint to its own VLAN, I heard an improvement. Isolating to its own VLAN means that any broadcast traffic from my home network would not make it to my endpoint. I have a very small home network and have used a sniffer to see how much broadcast there is. It's very little, but yet enough to have an impact. 

  2c. I have tweaked how the NIC interacts with the CPU. You can configure the CPU interrupts and resources the NIC driver is utilizing, essentially how the NIC interacts with the OS. It's an interesting test. You configure it to use more resources and you get lower latency, but that comes with some side effects (i.e. your server becomes even more sensitive to any extra network traffic, thus making the network chatty Roon even worse). You make it use less resources, and you are more immune to all the network activity going on, but you increase the latency and that has other side effects. i will be writing more about this in the Windows LTSC guide later this year.

All that tells me that that network activity on the endpoint impacts the sound quality. Even if you have the perfect server streaming the perfect stream over the perfect network to your endpoint, the fact that the endpoint is receiving and processing network packets (while playing) is not ideal and degrades the sound quality of the stream going to your DAC. 

 

The ideal endpoint would be one that does not have a network connection at all. And this is where attention to detail in software that is designed with sound quality as top priority matters. I do expect to see some breakthrough innovations in the software in the near future. 

But if that is the case, why so many people buy into the server/streamer concept and after trying many solutions including a single server/endpoint device, they prefer it (in many cases by a big margin)? I think the answer is twofold. One part has to do with upsampling and the other with the quality of the server. Let's cover those two:

 

Upsampling:

Many DACs work better when they are fed by an upsampled signal. Those are typically DACs that upsample internally. By feeding them with an upsampled signal they have to do less processing. That results in less processing inside the DAC, which results in less noise, which ultimately means better sound quality. Sparing the noise that tha DAC is producing during its internal upsampling in some cases is much bigger improvement than upgrading servers/endpoints upstream of the DAC. That is of course DAC-dependant and not always the case. But for these DACs it makes perfect sense to use software like HQPlayer that does the heavy lifting and offloads the DACs extra processing (and noise).

What happens when you start doing heavy upsampling on your server that is directly connected to the DAC? Well, I mentioned above what the impact of the network/ethernet processing is, but that is nothing compared to the impact of the heavy processing that HQPlayer does. The noise generated from the upsampling process on the server is in orders of magnitude bigger than the negative effect of the network/ethernet processing. It's much better to isolate the upsampling noise from the endpoint and accept the network/ethernet noise / sound quality degradation. The net result is a big improvement in this case. And this is why many people prefer a two box solution - a server and a streamer. Sounds like a good compromise... but there are people like me who just can't settle with such a big compromise and kept looking. More on that later. 

 

Quality of the server (in a single box solution):

This is another aspect that we should not forget. When you have a single device that handles the server and the streamer part, it is directly connected to the DAC and its quality is crucial. Computers are noisy devices that were not designed for audio. But with a careful implementation and the right choice of software, hardware, power supply, etc. you can make a single box solution work better than anything else. You cache the tracks before playing, minimize the network activity, and take care of every detail, and you would be rewarded. 

 

There is a saying that your system is only as good as the weakest link in the system. The same applies to the digital source. I look at it as a complex chain of components that interact in a very complex way.  There are different solutions for different people. For some people the benefit of the upsampling is so big, that they can live with the negatives of a server and a streamer solution. Other people have DACs that don't benefit from upsampling and settle for the best single box solution they can get. There are also people who like the small / low powered endpoints and can't understand why we do all that instead of buying a *Rendu for example - from my experience those are people with small systems, typically with bookshelf speakers who don't need the massive scale, dynamics, and everything else a server like the Taiko Extreme can do but like the low noise, dark background, small but holographic soundstage of these devices (and I completely understand their point of view as well). There is no universal solution that works best for everyone. 

Here is what I do:

I currently use the Chord DAVE DAC powered by a Sean Jacobs DC4 LPS. This DAC benefits from upsampling. It specifically benefits from being fed by 705.6/768kHz PCM. It also benefits from more taps, but that's outside of the scope of this post. As mentioned above a two server solution does not work for me. So I upsample my local music offline and store it locally. There are programs like HQP Pro and some others that can do that. I store the music locally on my NVME storage. Then I use HQP and NAA on the same server. I assign affinities for those processes on different physical CPUs (which also means they use different RAM modules). I have a CPU that is only responsible for the music processes (i.e. NAA in this case). The USB output is directly attached to that CPU. The other CPU handles all the network activity, OS activity, HQP part, etc. In a way, I get the best of both worlds and the net result is amazing. 

 

Going back to the question about Roon. Roon does a lot of things that harm the sound quality. It performs constant network activity while you are playing, it has constant disk I/O activity, it does some processing that swings the CPU utilization, which causes noise that is audible in a resolving system. And the list goes on... Depending on whether you use a two box (a server and a streamer) solution or a single box solution like me it has different impact. But in any case, it would not be my choice for critical listening. Having said that Roon/Qobuz is the best tool for discovering new music for me. I so use it for that. 

 

P.S. A note to myself - learn what a short reply means! 

 

Hi Nenon, just catching up on the thread.  Your system has changed quite a bit since we last spoke in detail.  But I suppose mine has too.  When you told me you liked HQP NAA with the dual processors, for some reason I wasn't aware you were upsampling for the DAVE.  I and the MSB owners I've asked prefer not to upsample, and I haven't found HQP without upsampling to supplant Roon.  TAS probably will (esp. when you read all the tweak raves on WBF).  But I'm more interested right now about your networking noise statements.  In your many experiments over the past year or so, did you try a fiber NIC on a single endpoint/server with USB to DAC?

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31 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Darryl,

 

I agree, ethernet is the root cause of many of the evils in computer audio. My suspicion is that it is the physical layer that causes most of the problems. USB has it's own problems, but we know more about taming them.

 

Lately, I have been thinking about building a switch using USB 3 instead of ethernet connections for the device end. This would be rather like an OTG connection for android devices. Of course there would need to be traditional wired or wireless connection to a router.

 

Larry

 

 

 

 

Hi Larry,

 

I was wondering about Bluetooth for mobile access.  But there is the distance limit, and my last few motherboards seemed to couple it with Ethernet, at least in the BIOS when I went to disable it after adding a fiber NIC.  For you hardware-smart guys that have a creative desire, homegrown gadgets are the ones that eventually become businesses.  Again, I keep thinking about that long interview with the owner and designer of Shunyata who said his hobby became his full-time job.  I'll look up USB OTG.

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45 minutes ago, JonD said:

 

Well dCS would not agree with this statement. Their entire product range of DACs etc is designed to use Ethernet as the best choice for SQ. This is from the Bartok, right up to the Vivaldi.

 

I guess it all comes down the implementations.

 

 

Yes, I thought about that.  Prior to the Pro-USB input module, the favorite input for the MSB was Ethernet, and even now there are some who refuse to make the change.  One customer comes to mind who prefered it because he didn't lose his remote, hardware-based volume control via Roon.  An MSB dealer did a detailed comparison of the Pro-USB and Renderer (Ethernet) input modules, and there wasn't a hands-down winner.  The argument by MSB in favor of USB was that their Renderer was "another noisy Linux computer inside the DAC."  I was slow to change my Renderer because it sounded great with the EtherREGEN.  It seemed Taiko landed on the side of USB input.

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20 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yes, many small sized M.2 2230 form factor wifi cards carry Bluetooth radios that seem connect via a (Virtual?) USB controller. This is alongside a PCIE X1 connection to the wifi portion of the card. I have never tried bluetooth as a music signal carrier in a serious way, but will have a think about it. It could be a missed opportunity.

 

Curiously, these same M.2 2230 form factor pcie slots can hold a SDcard or micro SDcard which opens some interesting music storage possibilities, especially for smaller libraries with 512gb micro sdcards in the $60 to $70 range.

 

I was only thinking about it in terms playback commands from a remote device, that limited scenario I described above where music is local, USB to DAC.

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On 2/2/2021 at 10:24 AM, lmitche said:

Yes, many small sized M.2 2230 form factor wifi cards carry Bluetooth radios that seem connect via a (Virtual?) USB controller. This is alongside a PCIE X1 connection to the wifi portion of the card. I have never tried bluetooth as a music signal carrier in a serious way, but will have a think about it. It could be a missed opportunity.

 

Curiously, these same M.2 2230 form factor pcie slots can hold a SDcard or micro SDcard which opens some interesting music storage possibilities, especially for smaller libraries with 512gb micro sdcards in the $60 to $70 range.

 

I was intrigued by the ADNACO USB subsystem bobfa is using.  It could work in my setup, but without Ethernet I couldn't go headless, and was wondering about any adverse sonic effects from long distance USB.

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29 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Here is where we stand with the DIY Taiko project:

 

In summary, the Taiko ATX would be available next month for those who want to experiment with it or use it to upgrade their HDPlex DC to DC ATX. Everything else is 2+ months away. 

 

Taiko ATX

If you have missed that, I posted a form where you can request one. Here it is again: https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=wAyHaKEU5EWxi4f_4gJE6LY6WJsC4qJJgufOWga3mOJUNlZSMDhBOEs5NVBVUDFKRENINlQzOVlZOCQlQCN0PWcu

Once you sign up, you will get an email with some more details. I believe the batch will be ready in March. See the Unregulated LPS section below if you are interested in the couple of early units that would be available soon. 

 

 

Nenon, can you please post once more all the spec info you have for the Taiko DC-ATX?  Thanks.

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  • 2 months later...
19 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

With the i7-10700K and having returned the Rog Strix Z490-E, im towards the Z590 which are compatible with my actual CPU and easier to upgrade to Gen 11th, so far these are the ones that im trying to decide.

 

- Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Maximus XIII Hero.....$499.99

- Gigabyte Z590 AORUS Master...........................................$409.00

- Asus Motherboard Intel Z590, ROG Strix Z590-E..............$379.00

- Gigabyte Z590 AORUS Ultra...............................................$319.00

 

Much of the differences that i have read is about more connectivity, internal audio, VRM and fans on the costlier ones, im willing to get any of these ($$) if they really have something to add in the final performance of the audio signal.

 

Any suggestions ?

 

Thanks !!

 

 

 

For anyone using the ROG Maximus, will the HDPlex heatpipes clear that VRM heatsink?

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3 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Hi, yes just, touching MB heatsink. But believe HDPlex are new version with cooler 3mm higher. Which will be 3mm clearance from pipes to MB heatsink. Just ask for new version when ordering HDPlex case. 
 

I’m using XII Extreme, the previous X1 Formula fits fine. 

 

Thanks for this info.  Not having had a Maximus, one of the angle shots on the website sure looks like the heatsink is a good bit higher than on the Strix.

 

Regarding the M2_1 and M2_2 slots on the Strix, I'd been waiting for this and was looking at it yesterday.  For those of us without gigantic libraries, we should be able to dispense with the Hyper M.2 card.

 

Another thought.  For those few of us who don't stream online, and have local music, and only need Ethernet for playback commands, I'm wondering if it would be helpful to move the fiber LAN card to a chipset slot, to keep the fastest PCIe lanes open for file access and USB output.  Just speculation at this point.

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1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

I do wonder how much different it makes if using Euphony Ramroot? In theory should be no disk activity at all. But we’re all audiophiles so we think it will...

 

Makes me think about even the next generation of data interfacing.  Only five years ago we were screwing SATA drives into the chassis and buying expensive SATA cables.  Then came M.2/NVMe ...

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For those with Z590 boards, what are the best options for NVMe SSDs?  Last I checked, pricing for large Optane SSDs was exhorbitant.  I'm focusing on the M.2 slots, as I don't need more than 2TB for data, but do we still want to separate the OS drive?  Thanks for getting me up to date on this.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/17/2021 at 9:12 PM, Exocer said:

Back to Taiko DC-ATX testing with PHSR7T.

 

Let's label the configurations A and B. Where:

 

A. Taiko feeding entire server, fed Paul Hynes SR7T 19v 10a rated single rail. Ghent Gotham JSSG360 from Taiko Dc-ATX to EPS on motherboard.

B. Taiko feeding ATX only. EPS powered directly from a Paul Hynes SR7t 12v 12a rated rail. All using the best of Paul Hynes best silver DC cables. No JSSG.

 

Solution A:

 

Pros

1. Amazing transparency.

2. Sense of space is more open.

3. New microdetails are heard and are surprisingly at the forefront. These details cannot be unheard when switching back but did not draw attention to themselves in the same way.

4. The sense of more information retrieval. There will be moments in your listening where you are shocked to re-listen to a very familiar song and will hear a series of notes in the background that you did not know existed! It is something to experience for sure.

 

Cons

1. The sound is a bit leaner and i'm a sucker for a "full bodied" sound. (my preference)

2. More noticeable sibilance over time. I am convinced this has more to do with the EPS cable than the Taiko DC-ATX.

3. Not as much sense of ease. Perhaps I was approaching the 10A limit or not staying within a comfortable range.

4. Down a few notches in slam/impact.

 

Solution B:

 

Pros

1. The sense of ease you get with a dedicated clean 12v rail is apparent.

2. More slam and visceral effect in hard hitting songs.

3. Sibilance is completely not an issue, especially with female vocals and sharper sounding songs.

4. Fuller bodied sound with no obvious loss of speed.

 

Cons

1. The sound does not have the same openness as Solution A although I would not consider the soundstage smaller or closed in.

2. Ultra fine details are not as audible and do not draw as much attention to themselves although they are present (after they jump out at you with Solution A and you cannot unhear them).

3. You kind of miss the magic of solution A depending on the song

 

Summary

In terms of musicality it is a toss-up. Please keep in mind that the cables are not entirely equal and I have had sibilance issues with the Ghent cable in my system before. With the cables I have on-hand I would prefer Solution B for longer sessions, but Solution A has a Lot of potential and it has this way of drawing you into songs you know very well. I would be curious to see how Solution A would work out with a higher capacity rail and/or an equal quality EPS cable.

 

Is the Taiko DC-ATX worth it as an upgrade from the HDPlex? In my particular setup I took a risk and ordered it not knowing what to expect...and it was a major step in the right direction. The HDPlex is good, the Taiko is astounding in comparison, even for ATX alone I feel it is a worthwhile upgrade.

 

Follow-up: In the near future I will be building another EPS cable made from the same wire we will use for our unregulated linear power supplies. This cable is known to be very neutral so the hope is that I can conduct a fairer comparison between solutions A and B. 

 

Hopefully you all find this useful!

 

Thanks for this Rob!  As we'd discussed I'm on track to have very a similar setup (though I am interested in Nenon's ULPS too).  Just to clarify, the only difference in DC cabling is the EPS run in Ghent, and the rest are all Hynes silver in both A and B?

 

So many variables to evaluate.  I'm also interested in the types of music involved.  In my experience orchestral, chamber ensemble, solo acoustic instrument, electric instrument, and vocal detail can all vary.

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2 minutes ago, Exocer said:

That is correct. I am hoping to confirm if the EPS cable had a major influence by testing again with a DIY version made with better wire.

 

Even so, the results seemed quite good.

 

Quote

I do not have the exact albums handy at the moment.

 

Don't take your time posting that, just making the point.  I listen to mostly classical, and I think they are the more challenging reproductions.  Most electric seems to sound great even in 16 bits.

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  • 2 weeks later...
35 minutes ago, Dev said:

Taiko is action 😄

 

1427405572_IMG_7848copy.JPG.78ae28d05c0bd73928f118f7d45845af.JPG

 

Just got mine too.  Couldn't believe the weight.  Certainly the copper backplate ...

 

How are you securing that?  My DC-ATX is currently in the same place, for my short ATX cable, but I had to hack some screws in from the bottom which I'm not doing with this.

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On 5/6/2021 at 5:35 PM, Exocer said:

I've been testing the 19V SR7T rail again to power the entire server (Today) and I wish I could redact some observations from my previous post. This sounds great

 

Vs 2 rails:

1. There is absolutely no harshness or sibilance (I have been listening for 1.5 hours now)

2. Dynamics are where they need to be

3. No thinness to report

4. Soundstage is about the same size

 

So for those who do not want to go with the unregulated LPS and already have a PH SR7T/DC4 LPS I highly recommend the Taiko DC-ATX to power both ATX and the CPU.

 

No, I have not switched out the EPS cable yet.

 

Some changes in my system since the first test:

 

1. CPU now runs at 4.5ghz (up from 3.8).

2. Tests were conducted with music files and OS on separate drives.

3. I've downgraded my Tidal subscription and listen mostly to Qobuz.

4. Perhaps the Taiko DC-ATX is appropriately broken in after several weeks of use.

5. Upgraded to a newer better sounding version of Euphony Stylus

 

I think i'll be keeping it this far for a while. The issue was elsewhere in my chain.

It'll be nice to have an extra 12v rail :)

 

Cheers,

-Rob

 

Good news.  Thanks Rob.  This is all I'm going to have time to do as well.  Could you refresh our memory on your DC input cable details?

 

PS - Last week I installed the new Shunyata Sigma V2 speaker cable, a copper-silver hybrid, and it is the most significant upgrade I've made to my system since my DAC.  Just like Caelin says, Sigma 2 brings in the positives from each material without the negatives.  Amazing cable.

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8 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Sure.

  • Gotham OFC 18AWG 8P-8P(CPU EPS) Power Cable(JSSG360)
  • Paul Hynes DC18FSXL-0.75m-M6: 
    • Length: 0.75m
    • This cable uses 3 sets of DC6 cable (hence the designation of DC18)
    • PSU connector: Jaeger
    • Device connector: Molex 6-pin (hence M6 designation)
    • This is use in conjunction with Taiko DC-ATX adapters (either 400W or 800W)
    • I used a single 19V rail on my SR7T to connect this to the power input (M6) of the Taiko DC-ATX Adapter

 

 

Thanks Rob.  I went with the Neotech JSSG360 from Ghent, but I'll have to replace the DC input because it's not long enough.  So if I understand correctly your only using one of the DC6 runs now since everything is going thru the Taiko?

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  • 2 months later...
2 hours ago, VaG said:

Hello, I'm following this topic for a while. I build my Audio PC. I would like to ask you guys what are next steps to improve sound of my PCAudio.

I'm using

Windows 10

WD hard disk RE 8TB SATA 3, 8Gbs, 7200rpm, 256MB GOLD

MotherBoard LGA 1151 Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite RGB Gaming ATX

Intel CPU Core i9-9900K 3,6/5 GHz

Ram DDR4 16GB 3200Mhz G Skill RIPJAWS V (2x8GB kit)

SSD Kingston A2000 1TB M.2 PCI-e 3.0 x4NVMe

USB card Femto 

-Foobar2000...Sound is not to bad, but I have problems with playing DSD formats. Sometims are working sometimes not.

-Tidal....I'm disapointed with sound quality. In tracks I'm hearing sss in higher tons

-Spotify....Most tracks are in lower sound quality, but ok.

-As DAC I'm using Loxije D30 with Burson Opamp

 

Everithing is in HDPlex H5 with HD plex 400 W HiFi DC ATX nano Combo.

 

Is there some steps to pimp setup, bios,...,

 

V

20210712_173026.jpg

20210712_173031.jpg

 

I didn't study things enough to know exactly why you have the hard drive, but you could get rid of that, esp. with the 1TB NVMe SSD.

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  • 1 month later...
3 hours ago, Exocer said:

I am hoping to conduct a small non-scientific shootout of 3 USB cards. Hoping to conduct this test in the next week or so. Looking forward to sharing my impressions.

 

Looking forward to seeing how that Core Audio stacks up.  Will you be posting your results in the "Best Audiophile USB Card" thread?

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