Warming up for best performance.

[fas42]

Unfortunately, warming up is a bit part of achieving the SQ I chase. On switch on from cold, the quality can be pretty dreadful, to my ears, and it will requires hours of solid conditioning of everything, especially the speaker drivers, until decent performance is reached.

 

This is a very big part of why it's so difficult to "present it on a platter" - there's an excellent chance that one, tiny little thing has not stabilised enough, or conversely, that some area of the system has degraded in that time frame, for some stupid reason, while waiting for everything else "to be right" - so, for that session, "I ain't got nothing!" ... 🙄.

 

The real engineering challenge is to ensure that one can state quite emphatically that given a certain sequence of warming up procedures, and that within a sensible time frame - minutes, not hours, days, etc, etc - that the SQ is at an acceptable level. Anything else is an admission of failure, as far as I'm concerned - if you're trying to do commercial product. Which is why I'm still experimenting ... 😉.

[fas42]

You probably won't get it in a million years, George ... 😜

 

You see, I've heard 100's of systems with "real equipment (especially speakers)" - and they all ... sound ...like ... shit - to me. I'm too busy flinching at the awfulness with which they are reproducing recordings I'm very familiar with, to have time left over to marvel at how swish they look ... I might as well get into someone's Porsche, of which they are very proud - and be constantly reminded that the vehicle is much closer to being a worn out rust bucket ...

[fas42]

Obviously, George was having a bit of a go, at me ... and I was just returning, in kind, 😄.

 

No, they're not that bad - but they always sound like a hifi system; and not the "real thing". The latter is the standard I aspire to - I once knew someone who was a camera fanatic, obsessed with the equipment; couldn't stop talking about his newest acquisition, or what he was drooling over, as "next on the block" .. what did he have to show for his 'efforts' ? ... ummm, they looked a bit like ordinary snapshots to me ... 🙂

 

Now, it's a great hobby to have fun with equipment - but my interest is in what the equipment can do.

 

People who are interested in experiencing recordings as powerful, emotionally moving moments in music making and creativity might find relevance in what I talk about - if they are prepared to take it seriously ...

[fas42]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

Then your brain must be filling in a lot of the missing information, just like Frank's brain  does when he is using his laptop's speakers.

However, I am also aware that Frank will upgrade his system when he can afford to do this. 

 

Yes, of course my mind is filling in when listening to the laptop's audio system - especially the "new" one, a small form Toshiba; speaker openings as big as your thumbnail, 😉.

 

"Afford to" is not the right term - tuning back in is more the go ... these days, I lose the momentum to do things very easily, and quickly - then I have to be 'inspired again', to go the next round ... it's a major bummer, actually ...😞.

 

It's not the 'easy' recordings that need to deliver - it's the 'messy', 'poorly recorded', "audiophile nightmare" albums that I want to make work as pleasurable listening - I have an Ike and Tina Turner CD here that will rip major chunks of skin off eardrums on normal playback, the sound is so 'sharp', 😜.

[fas42]

20 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Perhaps it uses UNDECODED DolbyA  ?

 

Ummm, a combo of Ike's mastering, and the equipment of the time, including a very dodgy tape capture of a live show or two - ABBA is sweetness and light, in comparison, 😉.

 

Why it's worthwhile 'rescuing' such recordings is that they capture amazing energy - the drive, the pulse of the music is fabulous ... this is what makes going to the efforts so rewarding.

[fas42]

41 minutes ago, STC said:

I don’t see you slowing down when it comes to posting with your mantra in this forum. Perhaps, reality is finally sinking in that you have been chasing ghost all these years?

 

I have always been frustrated by the fact that so few people "get it" - that, combined with listening to someone's "masterpiece of a rig" and having to work out what I can say nice, if asked, 😜.

 

Not a ghost, but a mirage - it's an illusion that requires precisely the right conditions to manifest - getting a system close to that point rewards one with plenty of very decent sound - which is good enough as a way station in the journey.

 

34 minutes ago, STC said:

I can easily debunk you. I can make recording of the same track at same level at same distance. And all you have to do is guess the price and rate them. 
 

but like always, you will now come with another excuse. 

 

Huhh? What's the price to do with it? ... I rate playback on the basis of whether I can hear the setup misbehaving; depending upon the recording, and what I using to evaluate the capture -- the best is obviously to be there in person -- I may or may not hear some problem.

 

27 minutes ago, STC said:

Just curious how did you manage to listen to so many systems?  I am in a small country and most of the audiophiles in this country are concentrated about 1 hour radius.
 

Australia is a large country. I don’t think there can be that many audiophiles within your area. The last time, when I wanted to visit a designer in Margaret River, I couldn’t anyone. 
 

Even in this forum, I think there could be 10. And among them probably 1 or 2 would welcome me. So Frank, What’s your secret? And how you managed them?  At least share the pictures. 

 

Remember, I've been interested in this for 35 years ... went over and over again to dealers, and people demonstrating in private homes - in the Sydney, and Brisbane area, people living way out in the country; went to the main hifi club in Sydney for years, all the demos, sometimes two lots of gear, every month - and the circuit of people going to each other's homes from that club. Perhaps, take the 's' of 100's ... 😉

 

I've already said, I don't do pics - had a burst of hobby enthusiasm for photography when I was young; and once I lost interest, I couldn't be bothered with this sort of thing ... it was what was happening for the ears, not the eyes, that mattered.

 

Do you mean, how did I manage to get the systems to the right level? If that's what you're asking, well, I keep repeating over and over again what I worry about, and my approach ...

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

There are thousands of other albums with the same qualities that don't require herculean efforts to enjoy.

 

Of course! However, my interest is in pushing the boundaries - I enjoy the challenge of getting some rough and ready recording to come good ... because I know the better the system is in delivering that, the more I can put on absolutely any recording, no matter how old or decrepit, that I have never, ever heard before - and it will come alive, deliver listening satisfaction in spades.

[fas42]

13 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

The fact that you can't actually summon up the energy to create such a system is the universe sending you a message.

 

Ummm, the universe is sending plenty of messages, in all sorts of other activities, that I've slowed down a lot - and I mean, a lot ... I used to take great joy in playing with programming code; nowadays, I burn out within half a hour if I look at this sort of stuff ...

[fas42]

2 minutes ago, STC said:

 

That has been established a century ago how to make the illusion work. You add nothing to it. 

 

The question was - dare you to take up the challenge. I will even do a favour considering that your laptop speakers are not working properly, I will only use one speaker. See how cleverly you avoided answering that like always. 

Why? You took one fine picture 35 years ago and since then soldering and desoldering the camera? 
 

Anyone in this forum visited listened to fas42 system?

 

 

 

 

ST, too many times the same retorts from you ...

 

No, no-one from the forum has heard one ... the giveaway was when an audiophile and his wife about 12 years ago listened to a setup in reasonable, not ideal state - he was busy making mental notes; she was bouncing around, having a great time, groovin' to the music ... she knew instantly it was 'right', and wasn't worried about anything else ...

 

Or, a classics fan - she was scared it was too loud, for the "big ending" she knew was coming ... the sound just rolled over us, just like it does in real life, without "any damage being done".

[fas42]

ST, if you want to worry about, say, technical solutions to acoustics, etc, that's fine by me ... what I'm after is the magic of immersive sound in the room, which never has to make excuses. Ever.

 

To me, this is 'superior' as an experience ... and I'll leave it as that ...

[fas42]

"Immersive" is what the playing of live, acoustic instruments in close proximity delivers - and achieving that from audio replay has everything to do with the overall integrity of the setup.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

What has any of this have to do with the actual subject of the thread ?

 

Warming up, conditioning is an important part of have the system working to an adequate level - my original Perreaux power amp had no trouble doing this, the monster laminated transformer got almost hand burning hot, and on those heat wave days I was checking things fairly often, to make sure all was still OK ...

 

2 hours ago, STC said:

That is BS. Try playing in an anechoic room and your definition of immersive becomes meaningless. 

 

Well, duhh ... I reckon I've come across this situation at least, ummm ...

 

1 hour ago, STC said:

 

I asked whether he is will to take the test of recording from various speakers. Total silence. 
 

He claimed he could recognize a real piano and I gave a sample. Nothing there too. 
 

I asked each steps he has done in his NAD. Nothing useful there. 
 

And now he is coming with immersive which got thing to do with the sound from the source. I guess now you will be ganging up on me. Oh yes, there were four of you in support of him. Go ahead Alex. 

 

We're talking about how to improve a system setup to the point that its delivers the type of convincing sound I talk of. Warming up is part of the 'strategy' - nothing miraculous there ...

 

Whether I can identify something is irrelevant - what counts is getting the SQ which makes the listening special.

 

ST, you want to learn to paint by using one of those Paint by Numbers kits - most creative people realise that slavish colouring in is not going to produce a masterpiece, 😉.

 

1 hour ago, STC said:

People got short short memory. They do not remember their audiophile journey. I believe we hear differently and I value everyone’s opinions. Few years ago, Franks posted a YouTube and claimed that was the perfect audio playback. I took it seriously and listened to them for a day or two. 
 

 

No, that was not "perfect playback" - you always overreach, ST, which means we have these silly interludes. The recordings were snapshots of the rig at that time, when it was working decently - but still hadn't hit the quality I'm after ... and I stated such clearly, in the posts, etc.

 

Quote

 

but in Frank’s case, he is not here to see from other people perspective nor offered anything that you cannot find from reading the reviews. He is here to assert there is a magic which can be achieved once in a while and you are supposed to discover by yourself. And all I am asking WTF it is and show me what exactly to do because I got all the time and tools to do it. 

 

 

Correct. In the first instance. But you don't have to "discover it by yourself". My approach is to have a back and forward session - and surmise from that what might be worth looking at - this is exactly how I work with the local audio friend ... he presents the latest iteration of the state of the system; I, or he, notice some anomaly; he reacts by altering, trying things; and we steadily progress the setup to a better standard.

 

A number of times I've tried to prod other people to be forthcoming about "what's not quite right" - but they rapidly clam up ... end of conversation.

 

 

[fas42]

Just to embed in this thread an account of what happens, by another 'experimenter' - this is a quote from another forum, https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-153.html

 

Quote

I could walk up to and around the whole speaker without the sound coming from the speaker at all. It was uncanny. Not 360 deg, but a fair amount. First time I heard it was a wooden Iwata horn on an Onken bass bin (don't remember the tweeter). It's one of those strange events you don't forget. The sound just didn't stick to the speaker at all. It always sounded like it was somewhere else. Have heard it since, but it's rare.

 

As Pano says, it's rare - but so distinct that you never mistake what's going on.

[fas42]

 

14 hours ago, STC said:

Nope, you mentioned 100s of rigs. Be consistent. 

 

 

Your comment here doesn't make sense, to me.

 

14 hours ago, STC said:

Look again at the post. 

 

Which post?

 

14 hours ago, STC said:

to that you must have some for of records. Like the measurements or actual audio recordings. None of which you have reproduced except for plucking in excerpts from here and there and modify them. Btw, which one is you in the Sydney Audio Club?  Do you know the link?  

 

I don't take measurements. It wouldn't tell me a damn thing, and the type of measuring which would be useful is still to be determined ...

 

I don't do recordings ... the ones I've put up are it, because I didn't have gear that was any good at recording before that; and I'm more concerned with getting the playback setup to a state that satisfies me - even the operation of the recording gear can disturb the SQ - it's all electronics, existing in the same room.

 

Pretty sure there are zero photos of me from the club - you mean, you want to see my ugly mug ??! 😝

[fas42]

1 hour ago, STC said:

 

 

1) I want to see you listening to 100s of rigs. 

 

 

In this day and age, that a photo means anything, anymore ... 🙂 the point is, that I was searching to see if anyone else was on the same wavelength as myself - just a couple; a HP setup copy using vinyl, another using a very well designed, long time extinct amplifier ...

[fas42]

43 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

Seriously Frank, your laptop cannot compete in any sense of the term "system". It could not fill a ample sized room with any amount of decent sound that would be inspiring. As well, most very high end systems that are very true to the source sound very good with very good recordings, or crap with crap recordings. They cannot and will not make a silk purse from a sows arse. Their purpose is to be faithful to the recording. The laptop is a POS, and always will be for playback. You talk A LOT, about nothing, for the purpose of hearing yourself talk.

 

A system is :

The room

Treatments

Very good speakers

Room correction

Well engineered components that mate well and match the application. 

Properly constructed interconnects and cables. No need for snake oil garbage.

Bit perfect output on a dedicated PC.

 

 

MAK

 

And where have you come from, son ... ? This has nothing whatsoever to do with a laptop ...

[fas42]

Oh dear ...

 

Quote

As well, most very high end systems that are very true to the source sound very good with very good recordings, or crap with crap recordings

 

Most audiophiles are trapped in this mindset - which is why real progress in the audio world is sooo slow ... who knows, it could take a 100 😊 years before it extricates itself from the swamp ... in the meantime, have lots of fun playing the bling game - quick, who's got the most impressive looking rig?! 😜

[fas42]

You just can't let this laptop thing go, can you ... as we say downunder, when you're on a good thing stick to it ... 😝

[fas42]

11 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

But speakers are among the few components where price truly is the measure of quality. The best, most accurate speakers are EXPENSIVE, there's no getting around it. The MG30.3 Magneplanars are not only Magnepan's most expensive, they're the company's best. The ML NeoLith is the most expensive ML at US$70K+, and is arguably their best (although a CLX system with a couple of ML Subs at around US$30K is probably just as good).

Unfortunately, no matter what you do with your mid-fi gear all soldered together and modified, it cannot make-up for the undeniable fact that your pair of Boom-Box speakers out of a ghetto blaster cannot be very good and certainly can't make the rest of your chain live up to its potential, even as limited as it is!

 

George, I started with a high a high end CDP, and high end amplifier, and bottom of the range bookshelfs - and got magic sound. Then went out and listened a huge range of gear, many using very expensive speakers - and they all sounded rather pooey. In fact, the more expensive the speakers were, quite often the pooier they sounded  ... now, I have tickets on myself that I'm a kinda logical sort of guy; so I could easily have said, the more expensive the speakers, the worst the sound - but i went a step further, and thought, maybe the expensiveness just is more revealing of the lacking of the chain driving them ... and strangely enough, that concept has worked ever since ... 😊.

 

Speakers are used an excuse for sub-par sound, without hesitation in most circles - it takes a bit of experimenting to work it out, but it it turns out very ordinary drivers have no trouble revealing problems earlier in the chain - so the latter is sorted out first.

[fas42]

42 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

He obviously doesn't know how foolish he looks. If he did, he wouldn't post the same nonsense on forum after forum ad infinitum, ad nauseam. 

 

And I see, and hear the 'foolishness' of people chasing better sound by ignoring the basics, and fantasising how some piece of kit even more dressed up than the one they currently own, will "magically" bring them The Promised Land ... 😉.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

Frank, read more. Post less. People may actually start listening to you.

 

Nope. Audiophiles like George are completely locked into a viewpoint which they will hang onto until the day they die - they were like this 35 years ago, and they have been the same each decade since. And every now and again I hear a system of one of these people, and it's full blown eye-rollin' time - I don't know where to start; so many cylinders misfiring ... and it would get mighty heated if I ventured some thoughts on the matter; they know they have a Good System - and that's that! 😜

[fas42]

10 hours ago, kumakuma said:

If you did, you would realize that going on and on about bling and expensive gear is completely out of step with the vast majority of folks who hang out here.

 

If you want people to listen to you, start listening to them!

 

Talking about listening to other people, how about this,

 

 

At the end he describes what the impact of the Rossini is, in terms of delivering "visceral sound" - that's the place where I live, what I'm after ... if I was listening to it, I would be nodding my head with approval. So why would I be bothered with anything of a lower standard, as something "to take notice of" ... hmmm?

[fas42]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

So your definition of "listening to other people" means cherry picking posts that you agree with. Can't say that I'm surprised. 

 

Ah, so your definition of "listening to other people" is to keep soaking up POVs you disagree strongly with, and know are wrong - until you are brainwas ... err, persuaded that they have something special to offer. Something like, if you keep listening to what Trump says, over and over again, you will end up understanding that he is probably the great saviour of mankind, in these dark times 🙂.

[fas42]

Let's say we are both confused ... 🙂.

 

I've been reading, and hearing the same stories, over and over again, for decades, about what makes for good listening ... and, it ... doesn't ... work. By contrast, I've established a certain approach which always works - provided one persists with the exercise ... so, whom I'm listening to, are my ears, 😉.

[fas42]

🙂 ...