Hqplayer: best NAA with best sound quality

[Miska]

31 minutes ago, Zauurx said:

We can dream of the perfect HQP server... with a big radiator and a 5v PSU 🙃

 

This is maybe getting close, but 12V PSU:

https://up-board.org/up-squared-pro-7000/?ADLNSystem

 

First series of those low power SoC's with AVX2 support.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, skipspence said:

Can you please specify filters and modulators which can go flawless with your 13900T doing DSD512 w/o GPU? 

 

I mostly use the default values:

1x = poly-sinc-gauss-long

Nx = poly-sinc-gauss-hires-lp

Modulator = ASDM7EC-super 512+fs

 

I believe the RAM choice also helped the results.

 

Assuming linear scaling, it is very close to be able to do DSD1024 as well (with GPU help).

 

[Miska]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:40 PM, sasho said:

Would you please recommend which of the following offered options Is best to get 

1)  ATOM X6425E  (4 core 2 GHz)   or   CJ6413 (2 core 2 GHz)   or   X6211E (2 core 1.3 GHz)

 

I would take the x6425E.

 

On 12/23/2023 at 11:40 PM, sasho said:

2)  64 GB or 256 GB SSD

 

Not really needed for the purpose. But 64 GB is plenty enough.

 

On 12/23/2023 at 11:40 PM, sasho said:

3) Win 10 Enterprise LTSC 2021 E or V or H

 

No Windows! But you would use for example HQPlayer OS with the HQPlayer part disabled. Or install for example minimal Ubuntu Server 22.04 LTS or Debian 12, and then networkaudiod package there.

 

[Miska]

13 hours ago, Markus8 said:

What device would you recommend? I first thought about buying a Mac Mini M2 (running a convolution filter and Upsampling to PCM 192/24) but go with your recommendation to further tweak sound quality. 

 

It should be fine for that purpose.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, sasho said:

I am not familiar with anything other than Win OS

 

You don't need to be. You just boot up the OS from USB memory stick / microSD and that's it. I'm using this kind of microSD reader:

 

Since it has multiple network interfaces you'd use HQPlayer OS image. To disable HQPlayer Embedded part there (not mandatory), you'd login as "root" and then do "systemctl stop hqplayerd ; systemctl disable hqplayer" and then you are done.

 

2 hours ago, sasho said:

Is It wrong to try fitlet3 with Win10 IoT

 

Not entirely, but very suboptimal and not recommended. It would run graphical user interface and everything like that which is totally unnecessary.

 

HQPlayer OS and NAA OS are built-for-purpose custom Linux based OS.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

I would be interested to know if a RPi4 can do sinc-long to 24/192 without cooking itself.

 

A lot depends on the attached cooling. For example on Holo Red, the entire machined aluminium case is heat sink. But I have not really tested it much for this kind of purpose due to DACs attached to it (TEAC UD-701N).

 

But nowadays for performing such operations I think RPi5 has a lot more potential. I have two RPi5's now, but still haven't got time to assemble those and try anything out on those yet.

 

[Miska]

10 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

@Miska hi Miska, you seem to be recommending to use hqplayer os for NAA and disable other features instead of the NAA os image. Does it make a difference?

 

Yes in case the NAA device has more than one ethernet port. If you use NAA OS on such device, every ethernet port must be connected to a network that has DHCP server, and NAA functionality won't be started until every port is fully configured with a proper IP. This may not be what you want.

 

HQPlayer OS bridges all ethernet ports (becomes a software switch) and then is happy when the combined virtual interface gets fully configured with a proper IP, using any of the ports on the device. So you can freely pick just any of the ports and don't need to do manual configuration.

 

In HQPlayer use this also allows you to use one port for local network connection and another port for NAA connection (not recommended), while every device still participates in the same network. Recommended way though is to use proper network layout and connect both HQPlayer server(s) and NAA(s) to the local network using a proper hardware switch.

 

10 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

Also for NAA, you seem to be recommending a usb micro sd card reader instead of usb flash drive, does it actually make a difference? 

 

Usually microSD is lower power and lower noise flash device, used on digital cameras and such. The difference is likely very small, but if you want to optimize this aspect instead of boot up speed, then using metal cased microSD reader instead of metal cased USB memory stick may be slightly better.

 

But this is rather cheap and easy to test and compare. Devices like Raspberry Pi anyway boot from a microSD card.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

Thanks Miska. I had disabled all Ethernet ports from Bios for my filter3 except for the SFP port and use the NAA image instead.

 

Yes, that is another way. It is not always possible though, when there are multiple ports behind single controller.

 

Using the NAA OS image without the extra bridge layer is more optimal (lower CPU load due to less network traffic processing).

 

[Miska]

15 hours ago, audiofool said:

Have you had time to test the Topping HS02 isolator with a rpi4?

 

Not yet, I still haven't tested the HS02.

 

15 hours ago, audiofool said:

I hear a difference between the usb3 and usb2 ports on the rpi4, do you know which one is technically better?  The usb3 port sounds brighter, but maybe that is noise or some sort of interaction with the buggy xmos chips?

 

I usually use the USB3 ports. Most typical implication with XMOS is appearance of USB packet rate (125 µs = 8 kHz) in the DAC output. Using USB isolator helps removing this in some cases.

 

15 hours ago, audiofool said:

Also, on the rpi4 there is software available to shut the ports down - once again sounds different with the unused ports disabled.  Hoping an usb isolator will lessen some of the differences.

 

Likely it would. Another important thing is to have good PSU with enough current capacity. RPi4 requires at least 3A and RPi5 requires at least 5A.

 

When RPi4 runs into power limiting it is flashing lightning symbol in top right corner of display (works at least on HQPlayer OS / NAA OS).

 

[Miska]

10 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

Hi @Miska and others, would like your take on using a fanless mini N100 pc with 8gb ram as a NAA running NAA OS image?

 

It may work just fine, with a good PSU. But it is impossible know for sure without personally testing it.

 

10 hours ago, dericchan1 said:

RPI5 are always out of stock and turn out to be more expensive than this…

 

RPi4's should be well available though?

 

And the UP Gateway I use and recommend has been well available also recently.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

I consider buying a Holo Red ; I have a bunch of silly questions.

 

it would take the place of a old MB Air I boot as NAA with @Miska's image. The MBA itself replaces a fried UP NUC

 

So, the input would be ethernet through a cable well in place : no need for a DDC. Yet, should I still need a HDMI cable for I2S when I would like to send Qobuz or Internet radio directly from the RED to my Holo May DAC without HQP processing ?

Would it make any sense at all or is it plain moot for someone already with a computer based system ? That is I can go to a radio website and route the sound via Blackhole... Or is internet radio better when acquired via RED and I should think of a way to get it HQP processed ?

 

You can of course use the DDC that way if you like. But you can also play for example MP3 internet radios through HQPlayer directly, without loopbacks or similar. You can also play such through loopback if necessary for some case.

 

And HQPlayer Embedded opens up additional possibility of using UPnP for such cases.

 

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

My guess is that in the end I will use the Red only as a HQP NAA endpoint and that there is no convenience or SQ to be gained (rather, lost) by using for internet radio or Qobuz. Right ?

 

Convenience depends on the cases. You can also run HQPlayer OS on Holo Red and direct it's output through the DDC, while it's NAA output would go through USB. And Holo Red can run some basic PCM -> PCM upsampling for Embedded's UPnP functionality that would maybe allow you some additional convenience cases. Of course that would imply having additional HQPlayer license which increases total cost.

 

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

Then, beyond greater pride of ownership, what do I gain vs ordering a replacement UP board ? Audible better USB implementation, reclocking ? power supply ?

 

Mostly you gain one nice looking package with built-in linear PSU. With UP you have two separate things, the UP itself and a PSU.

 

Of course with additional UP, one can set it up as USB input NAA for some extra convenience.

 

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

Should I flash Jussi's NAA image on the micro SD instead of the installed SW ?

 

Yes, you can pop out the default microSD and replace it with another one that has NAA OS. Do not overwrite the original microSD. Instead get a spare microSD, since those are cheap...

 

And remember to power down the Red before swapping microSD cards.

 

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

Plus, since I have Supra power cables on my DAC and Preamp I guess I need to order a SUpra power cable to remain consistent of it plain moot?

 

That is totally up to you. I personally don't have any fancy power cables. But I do have Supra USB cable between UP and Spring 3. Not that I notice any difference vs standard USB cable. My Holo Red is feeding TEAC UD-701N at the moment.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

 I would have to have Embedded +NAA OS on the same micro SD card?

 

Yes, that's how HQPlayer OS comes.

 

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

(my understanding for Embedded is that I would pick internet radios and Qobuz via the Red, have the Embedded processing inside the Red and output via I2S to the May while I would use the USB output for data processed by Desktop on my Studio

 

Yes, you could use various UPnP compliant control points to send internet radios to the Embedded's UPnP renderer functionality for playback.

 

6 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

For the UP I bought the cheap MeanWell PSU you once recommended ; so is the built-in linear PSU going to make a worthwhile difference ?

 

Given Holo Audio USB inputs, I'd say the differences are elsewhere. But if you have both, you can compare. And use the the UP Gateway for USB inputs!

 

[Miska]

44 minutes ago, cpcat said:

What about if using ramfs NAA image?  Would this make the type of load media moot?

 

No, unless you bother to unplug it every time you have booted up the system... I personally don't, so I have the media always plugged in, since my NAA's are usually hidden behind the DACs in the rack.

 

[Miska]

17 minutes ago, cpcat said:

I was thinking that once it booted there was little or no ongoing access required to the usb drive so it didn’t matter.

 

That is the case whether you use the regular or ramfs image. So not much difference in that respect.

 

The ramfs one just eats a lot more RAM because it needs to load a lot of data to RAM that most ends up being unused. So it takes a bit longer to boot up and consumes more RAM. But you can safely unplug the boot media once it's up.

 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Here is a data comparison, perhaps it is something that helps you to form your opinion?

 

That talks only about S/PDIF output which is not relevant for NAA use case where you would usually use USB output. Or alternatively I2S...

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Markus8 said:

Just a beginner question (I also intending to buy the Holo Red): I thought NAA is the protocol, but is there also a difference (meaning better sound quality) how the Red is configured? 

 

You can get for example some additional driver support for more DACs and leaner custom OS for just NAA use. Or full HQPlayer Embedded there. So you have various options depending on your needs/use cases. It is easy to swap the OS and it gives you this flexibility.

 

[Miska]

57 minutes ago, Markus8 said:

The usage scenario will be: I have a Devialet 440 Pro which is an amp with DAC included. I will connect via AES/EBU from Holo Red. To run HQPlayer (for convolution filter and Upsampling to PCM 192/24) and Roon I would use a Mac Mini M2 or M3 which sends via NAA to the Holo Red. 
Would that be a suitable setup?

 

Yes, that works too and what one would do with Devialet given that it internally operates at 192k.

 

[Miska]

43 minutes ago, Markus8 said:

Will I have to install something, or boot OS on the Holo Red? Looking for best achievable sound quality with the setup.

 

Easiest to just boot up NAA OS from a spare microSD. Very easy and straightforward plug-and-play.

 

Or you can of course also try with full HQPlayer OS image and see how far it can go in your case. Upsampling to 192/24 in itself shouldn't be much of a problem. But running convolution will depend a lot on size of the convolution filter. And I have not tried that on Holo Red...

 

[Miska]

14 minutes ago, Kalpesh said:

Any specific recommendation for the micro SD where HQP NAA image will be etched ? would  SANDISK MICRO SD ULTRA A1 32 GB be OK though it doesn't say it's TF ?

 

Any regular microSD should be fine. I cannot find any smaller than 32 GB anymore. NAA image is 1.9 GB, and HQPlayer OS is 2.6 GB so 4 GB would have been enough...  OTOH, then it doesn't wear out so quickly since wear leveling has more spare blocks to work on. I've been using Kingston's 32 GB models since that's what is available on the local supermarket.

 

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, Kalpesh said:

@Miska what are the intended pros of your NAA image for Holo Red vs incumbent Holo OS on the micro SD card packed with the Holo ?

 

My image is just enough OS to run the NAA functionality and doesn't have anything else. So it is minimal single purpose OS. And it possibly contains more up to date native DSD support for various DACs.

 

Just use which ever you prefer.

 

[Miska]

Just now, blueninjasix said:

@Miska Will there be NAA OS for the pi5 ?

 

Yes there will be. When the needed components become up to date and properly functional.

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Andrey Boldakov said:

Sorry asking stupid question, but maybe there is already a NAA OS for Nanopi Neo3 or it just will come some day? Or never? 

 

Not planned at the moment.

 

At the moment, in addition to the regular "PC" x64, I'm focusing on RPi and iMX based hardware.

 

[Miska]

On 1/19/2024 at 3:28 AM, dericchan1 said:

Hi I just got my rpi5 today with bookworm installed, which networkaudiod Deb file did you use? (From Bookworm folder?)  I can’t seem to get it to work.

 

Bookworm arm64 package works.

 

Please make sure you are using the 64-bit Bookworm OS on the Pi5.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, Markus8 said:

I hope I am right but you can get the best out of Holo Red with NAA when going AES/EBU also - if this is appropriate for you, depending on the device connected. 

 

That limits output resolution to max 192/24 PCM or DSD64. Which is not what would be used in most cases...

 

There are few cases where such is useful, for example with Devialet, or certain DSP based active loudspeakers. For such cases, another great NAA option is Aqua LinQ.

 

[Miska]

10 hours ago, Kalpesh said:

bottom line : do you concur that 96 dsp active should beat DSD 512 choked by analog active filtering at the final, loudspeaker, stage?

 

No, I'm not fan of such approach. But I understand if someone uses such.