Audirvana Plus 3 for Windows (Official Thread)

[Jud]

1 minute ago, bodiebill said:

 

I started using the mac version many years ago, and DSD64 => DSD 256 worked from the start.

 

 

I am virtually certain this was not the case years ago (DSD to DSD conversion on the Mac). I can always be wrong of course, but I don't think so....

[Jud]

51 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

I was not aware that A+ (and HQPlayer?) upsample DSD => PCM => DSD.

 

It's not possible to upsample 1-bit format (DSD) directly.

[Jud]

38 minutes ago, jamesg11 said:

As with what Miska does in HQP?

 

Convert to PCM.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

You can get around that by converting it to multibit DSD.

 

DSD, strictly defined, is 1-bit.  It's PDM or PWM, not PCM.  Anything with more than 1 bit has a PCM component.

[Jud]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

Multi-level SDM is not the same as PCM. (And if you want, you can also upsample 1-bit DSD as is.)

 

Note that multi-level SDM can typically have for example 3 or 5 levels that doesn't match with any number of two's complement PCM bits. For example modulators in TI DAC chips have 5-level output, that is log2(5) = 2.3219 two's complement bits. Advantage of  multi-level SDM compared to PCM is that for all values except 0 and maximum, multi-level SDM has more than one representation for the same value. This is one property that multi-level SDM DAC chips extensively utilize. Same feature allows also good quality bit-perfect DSD conversion when used correctly.

 

 

HQPlayer has two modulator variants, one that eats PCM inputs and another that eats SDM inputs (2 - 256 level). To be exact, there are two totally separate DSP engines, one for PCM outputs and another one for SDM outputs since these work in a different way. The SDM input one can remodulate directly from one SDM rate and number of levels to another SDM rate and number of levels. So for example rate is converted directly from 2.8 MHz to 11.3 MHz, without any intermediate rate. The modulator itself has gain property which allows adjusting volume as part of the process. You can also bake other kind of things into the modulator.

 

Also things like convolution are processed at the native rate, so for example if you do convolution for DSD256, it is processed at 11.3 MHz sampling rate.

 

 

So you define 2-level SDM very strictly and PCM very loosely.  If you are that loose, you can also say that DSD is just 1-bit PCM. Much simpler to call everything PCM! It would be better to be equally strict on both.

 

Equally strictly defined, PCM is two's complement (binary encoded) integer representation. So either DSD is also PCM, or HQPlayer doesn't convert to PCM.

 

I thought I recalled something different from a conversation between you and mansr here on the forums, but I could be misremembering.

 

My notion of DSD is that it's 1-bit, with values obtained through pulse width/density (more 1s for higher values, more 0s for lower values), like adjustments to a steering wheel, whereas PCM "words" have assigned values like points on a graph or map, and bits within the "word" have different values depending on position, so 010 and 100 are different.

[Jud]

In any event, we still have the question whether A+ upsamples DSD input.

[Jud]

10 minutes ago, Miska said:

Can you give a pointer?

 

Wish I could! I would have to search, and if I am misremembering, I wouldn't find anything.   

 

The Wikipedia article gives a nice outline of the picture I have in my head (in the "DSD technique" section), as well as saying things are really more complex than that, especially these days.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital

 

[Jud]

It depends. 🙂 

 

Were you thinking of something directly connected, or running A+ remotely and streaming?

 

If directly connected, I wonder whether a powerful miniPC that for example will upsample to DSD might, like a laptop, have the fan get noisy inside its small case.  If using it remotely for streaming, sure, no reason you can't find a powerful, relatively inexpensive machine.

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Sam Ash said:

 

I suppose direct connection would give me reliability, are there not mini units designed to keep cool without fans? Having said that, I have a few questions:-

 

My guess is that the set of mini-PCs that are fanless does not have a great deal of overlap with the set of mini-PCs that will perform upsampling to DSD without strain, and even less overlap with the set of mini-PCs with that capability which are reasonably inexpensive.  Of course that doesn't prevent you from hunting for and possibly finding an exception which fits all three criteria.

 

4 hours ago, Sam Ash said:

1. How would I connect a mini-PC to to an external dedicated 2-channel power amp ?

 

mini-PC to DAC to amp.

 

4 hours ago, Sam Ash said:

2. When remotely streaming via upnp/dlna, is there any loss due to comms compression ?

 

 

No.  I subjectively felt the sound was better, and that has been the experience of others I know who've tried streaming.  Since there aren't any measurements I'm aware of saying streaming results in worse sound quality, you can believe the (absence of) measurements, or of course you are free to listen for yourself.

[Jud]

Would suggest Qobuz, just on the basis of my subjective experience. Nothing except my own listening to support this, but I thought it sounded better than Tidal.  Trying Qobuz would require sending an email and being accepted into the US beta trial at this point.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

 

So no one has a MIcroRendu working with A+ Windows? 

 

 

Mine works fine.

 

Does the mRendu webpage show UPnP-DLNA working?  Have you tried rebooting the mRendu? “Hard” reboot, plugging and unplugging the mRendu?

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, blue2 said:

A couple of (novice) questions please:

Does Audirvana support redbook CD to DSD512 upsampling?

 

For Windows, yes.

 

16 minutes ago, blue2 said:

If so is it on a par with HQPlayer?

 

Up to you to decide.

 

16 minutes ago, blue2 said:

Does Audirvana support subwoofers for music? My requirement would be full range stereo out to main USB DAC with no DSP filtering + stereo and/or mono out to 2 subs with optional low pass filtering or ideally DSP using second audio device (initially PC headphone/line out).

Thanks

 

A way to do this might be to run software like Dirac or something similar, but I’m at least not aware of Audirvana+ having the capability to send differently filtered output to different speakers.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, blue2 said:

As regards sub output can it send the same stereo output to 2 PC devices so as to accommodate my use case?

 

It can send output to a UPnP/DLNA endpoint/renderer, which can be a computer, but I don't know that it's capable of sending to more than one at a time.  And I don't know enough about the capabilities of renderers to be able to say whether a single one would be able to perform the DSP you need.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, greyscale said:

Seems there is an update for the windoz version. Wish DP would let us know whats in the updates???

 

The changes for each version are on the Audirvana forum, Windows support area, Change Log topic.

[Jud]

10 hours ago, exdmd said:

Could we get some guidance on most common settings for SoX upsampling and how each setting affects sound quality so it is easier to tweak to preference?

 

I'm guessing the most common settings must be the default ones. People who have customized them are probably all over the map.

 

What each one does, I'll get into when I have more time, or someone else can take a stab at it.  Understand also that some of these settings may affect different systems differently.

[Jud]

There is also upmpdcli, but as the "cli" indicates, it uses a command line interface rather than a GUI. 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, tonileung said:

Thanks Jud. However I need windows-based since my DAC only accepts DSD512 on it.

 

I use a microRendu and stream to it at DSD512 from Windows.  So there's that option, but $.

 

Edit: Actually, I have streamed from Windows at DSD512 to an Asus mini-PC running Linux and upmpdcli.  I thought the microRendu sounded better.  Many folks like NUCs for this.

[Jud]

19 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

??

 

upmpdcli is derived from UPnP renderer mpd client, ie, it's a UPnP renderer front-end (mpd) client application for the popular mpd (server side) audio file playing application - so nothing to do with command line interfaces!

 

Like any UPnP renderer, it can be controlled by any application that has a UPnP control point, so including those that also come with a GUI like Audirvana +.

 

Oh! 😬 You know what happens when you (or I in this case) assume!

 

But changes to upmpdcli's configuration and reports of its operation and errors are ordinarily via command line (though the developer now has a rudimentary GUI available for configuration).  Certainly GUI programs can make use of its capabilities, just as with mpd.

[Jud]

5 hours ago, euphonite said:

Just had an update to ver 1.3.7.  Anyone know what changes in this update?

 

From https://audirvana.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1860 :

 

Release 1.3.7(1063)

- Database maintenance commands (bottom of general settings page)

- Local artists view: filter by artist kind

- Fix volume slider

- Stability and UI fixes

[Jud]

De nada.   

[Jud]

10 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

 

Ok, I see what your getting at: you're referring to whatever Linux shell CLI you are using to edit upmpdcli's configuration file, read its error log file, etc!

 

That's not really upmpdcli's own CLI - it has no user interface, no CLI, no GUI, nada. Changes to its configuration are done offline and upmpdcli needs to restarted for it to read that configuration file and therefore take on board any changes. So the rudimentary GUI you are referring is for an application that edits upmdpcli's configuration file, not a GUI for upmpdcli itself.

 

That's fine, but we're now getting a little picky I think. There are multitudes of "cli" programs that answer to the same description you gave of upmpdcli.  And the "rudimentary configuration GUI" application is done by upmpdcli's developer specifically for that purpose. So one can call it "a GUI application that edits upmpdcli's configuration file," or you can just call it "upmpdcli GUI config," and you know what I'm talking about either way.

 

What I thought mattered for the original response I gave is that some people aren't familiar with and don't want to become familiar with the Linux shell CLI, so I figured I would note that this could be involved in installing, configuring and running upmpdcli.

 

 

[Jud]

Getting a bit fixated? No, none of us ever do that! 😜

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Jazzbass12 said:

Hope it’s ok to post here... Does anybody know if A+ Qobuz 3 month trial will be available in the US now that Qobuz has launched in US.

 

Trial availability showed in my new copy of A+ before I gave it my username and password. Don't know how long the trial is.

[Jud]

19 minutes ago, zkeller said:

This may be obvious but I can’t work it out.

 

If I search in Tidal for an album e.g. I search for “Dark Star Safari”. A+ finds two and I choose the one from Jan Bang. The list of album tracks shows. Now I want to add all the tracks to ‘play next’. How do I do that?

 

Thanks 

Zane

 

If you want to add the album tracks at the end of a current play queue, select all the tracks, hover over one to bring up the button with 3 dots, click on it and select from the drop-down to add them.

[Jud]

53 minutes ago, RafaPolit said:

I have now fully functional Audirvana in windows sending UPnP audio to my RPis running Moode 5.2, one with an Allo Digi One, the other with Chord Qutest via USB.

 

It works.  Sounds great.  I'm annoyed that I have to disable the network bridge.  But, I have learned since that every major version is payed, so I pay now $75, and another when / if a new version comes along.  Also, have not heard back from any of the official channels, had it not been for Lucretius here, I would not have had a working Audirvana at all!  Read here: I would not have been able to even launch the software (and I'm a web / app developer, not a dumb user by any means!)

 

So, with that, plus the $10 of the remote app that would be required not to depend on the computer... I have downloaded a Roon trial... everything just works! Sublimely! I can broadcast to the entire house, I can configure DSP (headphone crosstalk), I can display play info on my Chromecasts or even access via browser in the RPi with included display.  Yearly subscription, and free apps on the iOS store.

 

It costs almost the same, specially if Audirvana brings a new version every year.  Support is years ahead, looks and integration as well.  Industry support and communities are also easier to find.

 

Finding it really hard to justify Audirvana.

 

Anything I'm missing?  Thanks,

Rafa.

 

Certainly if you have a strong preference, no one here would want to dissuade you.

 

I happen to prefer the sound of Audirvana, and that's what is most important to me. But I am also probably a little different than the usual consumer in a couple of respects: (1) I prefer a simpler UI, with content organized in accordance with my personal preferences, and Audirvana provides that for me; (2) I already have a lot of the "backstory" knowledge regarding artists and albums that is a big part of Roon's value proposition.

 

This is all personal preference, and may not be true for you.