SQFIRST Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 29 minutes ago, jabbr said: if the network segment is “perfectly isolating” It may be helpful to describe criteria or methods for the baseline of a network to be considered as perfectly isolating. If these have been covered in past, a refresher to revisit the topic will help. Superdad 1 Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 12 hours ago, jabbr said: a network segment that doesn’t pass differential mode, common mode nor phase mode noise How does one achieve this in a network segment? Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 @jabbr Thank you for the good information and for keeping the discussion going. I asked the above questions with the intention to refresh the information and hopefully establish some reference point. Superdad 1 Link to comment
Popular Post SQFIRST Posted February 2, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 2, 2023 I can understand @audiobombers point about long threads as information stays buried and it is not easy to get to a comprehensive and current list of information. However, since the technology and the journey keeps changing, we just have to make some effort in helping each other out best that we can. I am not sure where this post will be most relevant but this seems like a good place so please excuse if not. I have had success reducing/eliminating network noise after combining the isolation of the EtherRegen with the 10gb protocol, as suggested by @jabbr-Thank you for advocating this. My audio endpoint is the Lumin X1 which is a network streamer-dac (not USB) with an optical input as well as ethernet, which made focusing on network a priority. Please consider my experience as just one example, not necessarily ideal for you, but perhaps helpful to your journey. There were several positive impacts with the setup below but the main and foremost for me was the impact to my Roonserver usage. Prior to the 10gb implementation, it was near impossible to get rid of the noise while using Roon. Either the software had to be tweaked, making it a scaled down basic version, or the hardware had to be given the highest priority in the chain. Whatever I tried ended up compromising somewhere else, which was not acceptable. The ER makes a significant impact due to the isolation and reclocking. Without the ER in the setup, not only the audio steps back but all of the connected devices, such as video streamers, wifi devices etc also step back in quality. The isolation provided by the ER makes it essential for the audio as well and removing it (even with the 10gb) does not give the best audio. I also wanted to reduce my components and keep it as simplistic as possible. For this reason, I placed the ER in the central location and chose to use an FMC to the Lumin. The 10gb bridge takes the place of such an FMC now. The 10gb connection brought in that last final cleanup that was needed, while maintaining the positive isolation effects of the ER. With the10g inline, all of the impact of the upstream components appear to have become inconsequential. Everything that impacts my audio is now within the network isolation segment. I can concur with @jabbrs emphasis that 1000base-x is inherently incapable of keeping noise out. Adding 10gb (or higher) somewhere in the network chain does make sense for audio. taipan254, Duke40 and Superdad 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post SQFIRST Posted February 2, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 2, 2023 @taipan254 it is a 10g connection only when both ends are operating at 10gb. Two boxes with 10gb sfp+ modules are needed to achieve this. Based on how you are thinking, if the Lumin is directly connected at 1gb speed to a single 10g switch, it may work fine but there is no isolation benefit. ericuco and taipan254 1 1 Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 17 minutes ago, jabbr said: It’s the 10g switch that does the isolation most often in the ASIC. I assume you have a 10Gbe upstream connection in which case that segment is 100% isolated. @jabbr if you were responding to @taipan254 no problem. Otherwise, I am bit confused as I have shown all of the 10gb devices in my setup in the flow. Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 23 minutes ago, wklie said: 10 hours ago, taipan254 said: Can you run your 10G Fiber directly into your Lumin and just run it at 1G speed? I think there's a high probability that this won't work. Correct. It wasn't working that way. The switch would not connect 10g to 1g. I could connect by using 1g spfs on both the lumin and the 10g-switch, but that does not provide the 10g isolation by itself. The only time I saw the isolation benefit was when both switches were connected and operating at 10g speed. Just need that one connection for the isolation to be in place. As simple as this solution sounds, it is not intuitive or at all easy to solve because most people are only dealing with 1g speed rated devices. It will be great few years from now when other possible enhancements mitigate this type of issue, or when 1g is no longer the norm. Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 51 minutes ago, jabbr said: There are 10/1g hybrid SPF(+) that plug into the switch and communicate with 1g SFP modules on the endpoint. The protocol runs at 1000base-X. Would the 10g related isolation still apply when connecting down at 1000base-x using just one 10g switch? Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 On 1/31/2023 at 9:29 AM, jabbr said: The essential question: 1) if the network segment is “perfectly isolating” do upstream devices matter eg cables, servers, power supplies? 2) does everything really matter? 3) if so, how? How might effects cross a network segment that doesn’t pass differential mode, common mode nor phase mode noise? Prior to just few days ago, before I tried the 10g link in my network, my answers to these questions would have been different. After introducing just one single complete 10g connection in my chain, I can confirm that: 1) No. 2) To the extent that the device modifies the audio signal, such as cpu changes, dsp etc. For regular usage I am seeing proper isolation to be fully effective. 3) Still early days for me but so far nothing. Will report back if I hit something new. Thank you @jabbr for your help. Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 @jabbr Your case is different as your network is already at 100gb and possibly climbing, but hope you aren't suggesting that you didn't test what you have been advocating? :) For myself, the main takeaway, from this recent revival of the isolation topic was that if you are only working with 1gb speed devices, chances are that there will be some noise that creeps into the audio. For complete network isolation, adding a 10g (or higher) connection will be necessary. The method by which the 10g is added is, of course, flexible as there are FMCs and switches available. It will be nice to hear from others on their experience and also from those that already are using high speed networking for any isolation insights. Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Additional finding from my setup: I am seeing that any direct use of 1000base-x (1g fiber) within the network isolation segment introduces some noise. For complete isolation I had to relocate any 1g fiber to outside of the isolation segment or just use copper 1000base-t. My personal conclusion (not an expert one) is that for effective network isolation one needs to completely avoid 1000base-x and use any combination of 1000base-t and/or 10gbe (or higher). Usage of 1g fiber outside of the audio network isolation segment does not matter. Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 6, 2023 Share Posted February 6, 2023 10 minutes ago, jabbr said: Are you saying that you prefer the copper over the fiberoptic input to your Lumin? I'm not sure that's the general conclusion from what I've read. Yes. It is now. Optical was my preferred connection until my recent and effective network isolation change, that required removing all 1g fiber to achieve the isolation. I am sure this is setup specific. But for my particular set of components, I just could not get proper isolation using 1000base-x. Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 On 2/6/2023 at 8:08 AM, SQFIRST said: Additional finding from my setup: I am seeing that any direct use of 1000base-x (1g fiber) within the network isolation segment introduces some noise. For complete isolation I had to relocate any 1g fiber to outside of the isolation segment or just use copper 1000base-t. My personal conclusion (not an expert one) is that for effective network isolation one needs to completely avoid 1000base-x and use any combination of 1000base-t and/or 10gbe (or higher). Usage of 1g fiber outside of the audio network isolation segment does not matter. Need to follow up and report that this was a faulty grounding issue causing the noise and not the 1000base-x as I mentioned above. While overall my setup does benefit from reduced connections it was not necessary for the isolation. My conclusion was off. If anyone can tell me how to update a post I will appreciate as I could not figure out how to do that. Link to comment
SQFIRST Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 2/3/2023 at 12:30 AM, wklie said: On 2/2/2023 at 2:34 PM, taipan254 said: Can you run your 10G Fiber directly into your Lumin and just run it at 1G speed? I think there's a high probability that this won't work. On 2/3/2023 at 9:46 AM, jabbr said: There are 10/1g hybrid SPF(+) that plug into the switch and communicate with 1g SFP modules on the endpoint. The protocol runs at 1000base-X. On 2/3/2023 at 10:48 AM, jabbr said: On 2/3/2023 at 10:39 AM, SQFIRST said: Would the 10g related isolation still apply when connecting down at 1000base-x using just one 10g switch? When the switch receives the packets over the 10Gbase-X protocol then it is required to reduce jitter and noise. Typically when the switch receives packets using the 1000base-X protocol, it will go through the same circuitry as 10G but that's not guaranteed. Sharing additional findings from my setup regarding the above premise as originally asked by @taipan254 For the Mikrotik CRS305, which is what I am using, I tested out the scenario by using dual rate SFP+ transceivers (Finisar FTLX1471D3BCV) and it does indeed, use the 10GBase-x protocol when operating at 1G speed. One can achieve 10G isolation using a single 10G device with dual rate SFP+ modules. The CRS305 is a managed switch and it is bit tricky to make the rate setting work. I realize this post is better suited for the optical networking thread but wanted to close out the prior discussion here. taipan254 1 Link to comment
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