Why!? Please Tell Me Why!

[Albrecht]

16 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

So this image was posted earlier in another thread. I believe it was from AXPONA 2018. Regardless, can someone please comment on what in the hell the purpose of these "cables" could possibly be. I'm no E.E, but I have plenty of ideas of what one could use them for, other than electrical signals. These damned things just make me sad for our entire hobby.

 

Well; not saying anything about the cables, - but the last thing that you'd want to trust is the opinion of some electrical engineer, - who the mass majority of,  know very little about high end audio, and indeed, - eschew it.

[Albrecht]

4 minutes ago, marce said:

No just crap cables....

ah ignorance,

 

the cornerstone of the judgemental, opinionated bully...

[Albrecht]

14 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

The lengths some audiophiles will go to never ceases to amaze me. 

 

I think that you are confusing audiophiles with their trolls.

[Albrecht]

31 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

An Armchair Expert like yourself would be MY last choice on who to trust...

Why not trust yourself? It does make sense that people would follow the pseudo-scientists, - their fallacious arguments are powerful to those who are easily bamboozled.

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

I do and I agree that we shouldn't trust pseudo-scientists selling and manufacturing high-end audio equipment.

LOL....

 

We shouldn't trust naysaying EEs promoting their ignorance & lack of knowledge surrounding high performance systems. Better rely on evidence, reason, and science.

[Albrecht]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Please provide some examples of evidence, reason, and science related to high performance systems. I haven't seen a lot of it. 

The testimonials of the oodles and oodles of the results of the comparative listening tests of the 99% of those that have experienced and listened to the systems. Most all of which are engaging in corroborative experimentation and are enjoying the results.....

 

At the core of the Scientific method and investigation is curiosity. Aren't you curious why your "reading gross assumptions on the internet" flies in the face of the 99%?

 

[Albrecht]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Ralf11 nailed it in the post above. 

 

No idea who you are quoting in the last sentence of the last paragraph or what the 99% is. 

""No idea who you are quoting in the last sentence of the last paragraph or what the 99% is. ""

I would suggest visiting the site a bit and read what everyone else except for the 6 or so trolls in this section cry about constantly.....

 

""Ralf11 nailed it in the post above."

the reason the ignore feature was created

[Albrecht]

9 hours ago, marce said:

You accuse others of trolling yet your posts are:

empty of content.

Generally are insulting to other posters, science and EE's.

Don't engage in meaningful debate.

Display extreme closed mind to opposing ideas.

Pretty much displaying all the attributes of what you accuse myself and others of.

It's a bit like being in the playground calling each other inane names.

I am not initiating posts attacking audiophiles or high performance audio manufacturers. I am defending, - not initiating.

What is the endgame here? Does the OP (and you) think that HEAM will quit? Or that Audiophiles will suddenly sell all their gear and go buy consumer gear? With all the vitriol spat at audiophiles, on an audiophile website: it's not as though you want to protect audiophiles from wasting money. Why don't you go bite the head off computer manufacturers where the cost to manufacture vs retail price is so much worse than HEA?

 

""Generally are insulting to other posters, science and EE's.

Don't engage in meaningful debate.

Display extreme closed mind to opposing ideas.""

 

LOL, - what opposing ideas? bait and switch much?

[Albrecht]

9 hours ago, marce said:

Why don't you shut up

Why don't you?

[Albrecht]

6 minutes ago, marce said:

You really do have a sad and misguided view on these things...

No vitriol is spat at audiophiles, what happens is some of the more esoteric beliefs in the hobby are rightly questioned and because we don't conform to your blinkered beliefs you spit your dummy out...

Being an audiophile myself (of the more objective side) what I would like to see is a move back to achieving real sound fidelity and despair at how things are these days with magic cables etc.

Computers are a bad example to pick, technology has got cheaper and cheaper and more importantly they don't try and sell magic add ons such as magic cables, grounding boxes etc.

Finally in regard to the silly cables this thread is about, has anyone thought about the stress such large cables will put on the connectors, plugs and any connections ...

 

"" You really do have a sad and misguided view on these things... ""

Pot meet Kettle. I have knowledge based on experience, which reflects the majority viewpoint. Unfortunately, - the same can not be said of your unreasonable attacking position....

 

""egard to the silly cables this thread is about, has anyone thought about the stress such large cables will put on the connectors, plugs and any connections ...""

You can call cables what you want from your ignorant viewpoint, - but whether or not that position is unreasonable is just your unfounded and vitriolic, assumption; outside reality.

The best that YOU can say about those cables is that you know nothing about them...... Even your "silly" (to quote you) assumption that they're too heavy for the connectors, is questionable without knowing how much the cables weigh, or what type of connectors are on the speakers, and how those connectors may be mounted/attached to the cabinets, - or the cabinet material.

""Being an audiophile myself (of the more objective side)"

Although it is possible, it is silly as the "objective" component of a subjective experience and knowledge is grossly mundane at best.

[Albrecht]

10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Your 'majority' is a minuscule drop in the larger community that does not hold the same view. Your view belongs to a tiny minority that contradicts the real majority that includes most scientists, engineers (yes, EEs), and average folks who couldn't care less about magic cables or grounding sand boxes. So if you want to make it about a popularity contest, sorry, you lose.

 

What community are you talking about? The "audiophile" community is really small, for sure. But again, - you are on an audiophile website. The majority of people here audiophiles. The average system retails for $20,000. they/we value high performance audio. Certainly on an open forum like this, - there are also a loud minority who come here to attack those that value high performance audio gear. If you do not, or anti-audiophiles do not, or computer engineers, etc. there are several other anti-audiophile sites and blogs where they/you can encounter and interact with other like minded folks.

Anti-audiophiles here are the minority of another minority. If you don't value higher performing audio equipment, and don't want to improve your listening experience, - why are you here? What sort of underlying assumptions are you making about Avalon speakers or Meitner DACs? Or the people that value them?

""So if you want to make it about a popularity contest, sorry, you lose.""

What polls have you conducted?

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Community of all audio equipment users is much larger than CA, and contradicts the findings of your so called 'majority'.

 

I guess that I have to say it again, - another way perhaps?

 

""Community of all audio equipment users is much larger than CA,"

Not talking about that community. But this one, - which is the audiophile community.

 

CHECK

THE

NAME

OF THE

WEBSITE

 

""so called 'majority'.""

 

You don't have to stick the "so called" in there.

reposting, - as your post indicates that you haven't read it....

 

""there are also a loud minority who come here to attack those that value high performance audio gear. If you do not, or anti-audiophiles do not, or computer engineers, etc. there are several other anti-audiophile sites and blogs where they/you can encounter and interact with other like minded folks.

Anti-audiophiles here are the minority of another minority. If you don't value higher performing audio equipment, and don't want to improve your listening experience, - why are you here? What sort of underlying assumptions are you making about Avalon speakers or Meitner DACs? Or the people that value them?""

 

 

[Albrecht]

24 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

If this CA community defines the 'audio truth' for the rest of the human race, then your point might make sense. To ignore the opinion of the larger community because you happen to belong to this one is living in a bubble.

The subject is about audiophiles, and audiophile cables & equipment, - not the rest of the audio community. The audiophile community is DIFFERENT. (the CA community likely doesn't, & shouldn't GAF about consumer gear).

The audiophile community places different values on the music listening experience than does the consumer audio industry.

First, - there's no such thing as "audio truth." What does that even mean? Second, the CA community talks about higher performing audio equipment, and (via the definition of audiophile), is concerned about enhancing the experience of music recordings.

[Albrecht]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Similar cables are far older than that. I remember once going to a Martin -Logan dog-and-pony show at a local dealer some 15 years ago. They were showing off their then top-of-the-line speakers powering them with a pair of Classe mono block amplifiers each the size of one of those small office refrigerators. They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.

 

Electronics technology is a big part of all of our lives, and I understand that most people don't know squat about it, and don't need to know anything about the technology to use the products. But I know of no other field other than audio where manufacturers take such blatant advantage of customer's ignorance to sell them useless products at inflated prices (Oh the car after market used to be a little like that. Remember 'Fire Injector' spark plugs?). I mean nobody sells TV cables as big as a baby's arm from the cable port in the wall to bring-in better signal. Nobody sells cable elevators for one's computer system or spikes to adhere to the bottom of one's desktop. So what is it about audio that stamps a big sign across our foreheads that says "Sucker!"? 

Of course what you are saying is completely untrue. Can you give some specific examples of cables that are "useless?" In most all cases, - speakers are not wireless, and even if there are wireless speaker systems, - there is still a cable that's needed from the wireless receiver. So those cables do have a "use."

Can you also give some specific examples of "inflated prices?" I would assume that you'd need to know the precise cost of the wire, and shielding, then of course the packaging that it's in, and accounting for the 40% dealer mark-up, deduce the percentage of mark-up based on the retail price vs the cost to build.

""They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.""

I would hazard that very few people who are interested in higher performing audio equipment could GAF about what your idiosyncratic opinions are about what is "ridiculous."

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, marce said:

You can have the last word.

As I have said though many times cables do have an effect on signals travelling down them, it is measurable... the debate is whether it is audible, if it is something is wrong.

Hi,

I'm not interested in "having the last word." What I am interested in is defending a very reasonable position based on knowledge & experience....  I appreciate that you said, - ""As I have said though many times cables do have an effect on signals travelling down them, it is measurable... the debate is whether it is audible, if it is something is wrong.""

 

The debate is whether it is audible AND whether or not it improves the listening experience of the overall system.

Certainly $3000 Cardas Golden Reference speaker wire is NOT going to be used by anyone with a Sony Boombox that has speakers that can be removed and separated. (It is highly unlikely that there would be a difference between Cardas and Home Depot 12ga lamp cord).

Conversely, - no one is going to use Home Depot lamp cord on their $45,000 Avalon speakers, - assuming that they've made a good amplification choice,  - as the difference as to how both types of speaker cable affects the whole system are quite apparent.

 

(I am not saying that this is you) but when anti-audiophiles come on to this (audiophile) site and say that all speaker cables are useless, overpriced junk, whose manufacturers are snake-oil-bamboozlers, - this directly contradicts the vast majority of people here/audiophiles & their empirical knowledge, experiences, and investigations. 

 

[Albrecht]

54 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Again, only makes sense if you don't make sweeping statements like

 

Naw....

I said "naysaying EEs"  the word naysaying being key. There are some EEs here for sure who are also audiophiles, and corroborate their listening investigations with measurements, as well as vice versa. But again, - we are dealing with super complex combinations of A/C power, in listening rooms, with different combinations of playback equipment, - no two systems are the same: so comments about the efficacy of (for example) the speaker cables in this thread, - are nearly valueless out of context.

[Albrecht]

21 minutes ago, marce said:

There are differing views though on this site, and in the main the two camps exist happily side by side, just occasionally sparing on the odd thread, that's what gives the forum life, otherwise it would become stale.

I believe threads like this one started out are good for all, as stated before its good to laugh at oneself, and this thread was doing that with a few inane comments about what are rather far out cables in anyone's book. 

OK... fair enough. I apologize if I've been too serious & too sensitive. Perhaps my perception, - but I would contend that there are folks who's "jokes" are meant not as jokes but meanspirited degradation of something that they know nothing about, and then it becomes good sport to "pile on" to the straw men. It's almost like it's a given that high-end audio manufacturers are these wealthy oligarchs with 9 houses, selling products that don't work, with an insane markup. But upon a real analysis and research, - much of this falls away.

 

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Are you sure these are super complex? There are much more complex systems out there, some, by the way, Marce is working on, that dwarf the complexity of inhome audio equipment. It’s sheer hubris  or ignorance to think that audiophile equipment is really that complex.

not specific audiophile equipment but all the components, - including room, A/C power, cabling, etc. What I meant was not (an amplifier for example) but the different possible combinations of things that can affect the final sound.

 

" It’s sheer hubris  or ignorance to think that audiophile equipment"

I think that it's grossly greater ignorance & hubris to conduct a cursory measurement of a cable, and then deduce it's efficacy in any complete system's final sound....

[Albrecht]

9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

And who is guilty of doing such cursory measurements?

 

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine, - back thread.... 

I can see why that would be important to you, as from your posts, I gather that you're not interested in enhancing the listening experience, the equipment that does so, or maybe even enjoying listening to music at all.....

i hope that someday, - you'll have some really good, and fun, listening experience that changes your position.

[Albrecht]

8 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

Exactly @Albrecht. Just having some goofing on these a giant wires. No need go and get swept up in all this emotion. Clearly a sound investment in wires is usually worth it, but even you, I am guessing being a man of intellect and wisdom, must surely acknowledge the insane design and price of such cables...

Absolutely.... 

 

"some" cables yes. But I have two things about it. I easily recognize that because I can't afford something, - doesn't mean that it doesn't "sound good." And, - very often, - even if i think that the price is super high, - it doesn't take much research to understand why. For example, - the purist, single crystal silver that's cryo treated may not make the system sound "better" but the cost of the rare materials....and if it is built in Europe and shipped to USA, and dealer markup... etc... etc.....

 

[Albrecht]

27 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

While this might come as a surprise to some of my harshest critics, there is merit in the idea that making assumptions is antithetical to meaningful, substantive discourse.

 

Personally, I don't think there's technological value in $10,000 Ethernet cables (for example), but to extrapolate that the purveyors of those cables are obscenely wealthy is at least misguided.  Experience online and in meatspace has taught me that people jump into audiophilia for lots of different reasons.  For me, audio gear is like any other appliance in the house (or on road, like a smartphone or DAP).  I've never had a relationship with my toaster oven, but I'm coming around to the idea of not looking down on those who (as GUTB says) are "emotional" about audio.  But the reverse is true as well.  Just because I don't have a relationship with a DAC, amp, or cables, doesn't mean I'm any less of an audiophile than anyone else.  And in my book, anyone who cares about sound quality is an audiophile.  Oh, and in case I wasn't clear, the amount of money someone spends has no bearing whatsoever on their commitment (or lack of it) to audiophilia.

 

I see @christopher3393 has invoked Diana Krall above.  While I find her work rather banal, she's infinitely more interesting than this tired, "audiophilia is decadence" trope.  Perhaps it is decadence, but this is not the appropriate venue for such a topic.  Believe it or not, there is a forum for that.

I can't afford $10K ethernet cables. Even if they would be better than the fiber that I'm running, - which is cheaper than even lower priced "audiophile" ethernet CAT6 or 7 wire, - (anyway even they would be better), it would be way out of context with the rest of my system.

Most of us have cars, (stereo there), smartphones, etc. garage-bedroom systems. My point is that those experiences with those different performance level systems, vary. When people pile up these experiences, and they encounter equipment that they find really improves the experience of listening to their favorite music, - they feel like they get a deeper connection to the music, and enjoy it more. So they ALSO get an appreciation for the gear. AvanteGaarde horns are wrong for me, - but I really had a deeper appreciation for an AvanteGaarde, Viva amp, Meitner based system when hearing Aaron Copeland's "Fanfare for the Common Man." I appreciated BOTH the gear and the music. I still like "Fanfare for the Common Man" on my iphone, - but not as much as I did with those AvanteGaardes! My toaster does an adequate job of cooking up my English biscuits, - but that experience, - obviously, - is entirely different, - (of course), - so much less multi-faceted.

Prices paid for systems, (you are so right), vary as the day is long. Some people are given systems. Some people get dealer pricing. Some people get hand-me-downs.....etc. Personally, - I was lucky on a couple of fronts anyways... thanks for your post here....

[Albrecht]

58 minutes ago, GUTB said:

This thread is a good example of “truth by popularity”. Everyone knows that audio signals are directional. The source generates the signals and something receives them. Speakers are a load on the amp. It’s easily understood and no one seriously debates any of that. The debate isn’t with the facts, it’s with me because it’s a social requirement for me to be defeated. I could say the sky is blue and extreme pedantry would be deployed to argue with me. Truth by popularity is why I don’t engage at length because it’s pointless, unless called out by my fans (I have a duty to my fans).

 

 

So true. And it represents the "cult-of-personality" way of thinking of those anti-audiophiles making assumptions, instead of getting the facts and/or doing the investigations themselves.

[Albrecht]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Have you actually read any of the information that has been put up, please stop trolling these threads...

As far as I can tell there has been a civil discussion on the complexities of signal transmission and whilst there are some differing views I cannot see any hostility or anti-audiophile rants... For ***** sake if we were not audiophiles we would not be here disucssing all this, we'd have a life.

The thread is a troll....  There has been a lot of discussion surrounding all sorts of things in this thread. For heaven's sake, don't add fuel to trolls, and stay out of discussions of things that you don't know anything about....

[Albrecht]

25 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

Hey, stop that. This is a quality thread. One of my finest!

[Albrecht]

On 4/26/2018 at 11:23 PM, marce said:

What like getting signals down wires and traces....

no, - like judging the efficacy of something that you know nothing about.....