EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[thotdoc]

Superdad-I've just spent 2-days reading this.

1st-Thank you and John S for your involvement in audio. Your company, SGC and Sonore have changed the level of enjoyment in my and our musical lives. 

2nd-Your patience in moderating is amazing.

 

G

[thotdoc]

Please count me in for a unit. And good luck with putting it into production.

[thotdoc]

Superdad- No one who knows you or your company is buying based on price. You've put in the work; make a solid profit. If people want/need the product, 25$ or 50$ more per unit will not make a real difference in sales and it may make a real difference in your profitability. 

[thotdoc]

Congratulations on the progress.

[thotdoc]

When you have time, would you give more specific information about the need for an external clock, given the ER improves timing through its timing mechanisms.. 

 

Will you be recommending an external clock and specific cables? Will there be an upTone external clock?

 

BTW, looking at the case end mockups, one side says "B Port Output"...makes it seem like there is a  designated input and output pathway and my ( maybe mistaken understanding) is there is no set input and output pathway. 

 

Thank you

 

G

[thotdoc]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

Plenty of work still to be done. But if all goes well with these pre-production boards then real world testing can begin so that we can enter full production in just a few weeks.  Crossing our fingers...

 

John was going to be using the past several weeks wait time (while these boards were being built) to write the code for boot programming of the clock synthesizer and the Ethernet switch chip (you can see the two 6-pad TAG-connect spots on each side of the moat--where every board will be flashed in production). To facilitate this, about 6 weeks ago he built a circuit board with just the synthesizer, the tiny microprocessor he chose, and appropriate power supply parts.

 

Unfortunately he had to spend most of that time sorting out several arcane issues regarding getting the code to run after loading. So a lot of time was lost by the programmer (John) getting the programmer (the other boxes and boards we bought) to program the processors which in turn program the chips on start up.  It was very frustrating for him and required many nights of deep-dive into the data sheets of the processor as well as web forum searching. But in the end--just in the last three days--he discovered and overcame all three of the obstacles, so that now code loads and runs correctly. Hurrah!

 

Just last night he was able to begin writing and testing code for the clock synthesizer and switch chip. There really won't need to be a lot to it (he completed the Ethernet switch register settings research long ago), though the synth will load separate code sets depending upon if the little black switch next to the BNC jack is set to Internal or External.

 

 

 

Thanks.  We are happy and optimistic. But truly all the credit goes to @JohnSwenson.  He supplies the brainpower, I supply the nervous sweaty palms and words of encouragement.  I NEVER loose faith in John, even when he has hit a wall. I forget how his wife phrased it last week when he felt he was stuck: Something to the effect of "Guess you are just not done yet." 

 

 

An external reference clock is NOT required to get stellar performance from the EtherREGEN! 

It already has built-in the lowest-phase-noise production oscillator on the market (at least one where the OEM cost is not hundreds of dollars!)--positioned within millimeters of the chips that use it.  Plus virtually all the clock lines on the board are run as differential pairs--including across the moat--and the ultra-low jitter differential flip-flops we use are unparalleled in the world.  So real-world jitter is going to be far lower than any other switch with just a fancy clock board wired in. 

 

So why is there a BNC jack and support for an external 10MHz reference clock? Because it was easy to include (for probably a total of less than $10 more) as a competitive "checklist" item.  It is no secret that we are going to compete with the nearly 3x the price and 4x the size SOtM sNH-10G.  I'll skip all the in-our-favor technical advances comparison for now.  But since the SOtM sNH-10G has (if you pay the extra $200 and get the $1,700 version) a BNC for external clock; and since some of the enthusiasts here happen to have a fine expensive reference clock such as the Mutec REF10--it seemed like a good idea to include provision for that on the EtherREGEN.

 

Will use of an external clock with the EtherREGEN make any worthwhile sonic difference?  I have no earthly idea!  I guess some of you will find out.

 

No and no.

 

You are correct about that.  But based both on the questions that have come up in this thread and on what will be typical usage for the average person, I decided to include the word "OUTPUT" above the 'B' side port. Consider it a preemptive attempt to reduce e-mails from people who don't read the User Guide. 

 

Thanks Paolo. Also considered. But I am trying to keep things simple and we really want people to read the User Guide. I am hoping that Calling them 'A' PORTS and 'B' PORT will encourage people to read the User Guide to see and understand about the two sides of the moat and how best to attached their components to the EtherREGEN. 

 

[Of course now you gents have me thinking about all the text and diagrams I need to create for the User Guide.  I have yet to write a word of it! ]

Thank you for the answers

[thotdoc]

15 hours ago, Superdad said:

 I’m in bed with a couple of cracked ribs—from a stupid biking accident on Sunday—very painful, so I’ll be brief:

 

I am so sorry about your ribs...been there, done that and it is painful. Going out with friends tomorrow night for drinks..I'll have a few for you. Hope it makes you feel better...

 

Best,

 

G

[thotdoc]

To get the best SQ, the eR should be powered by an LPS-1.2 and very short power cable...ie, the same drill as with the uR...Is that correct?

 

Thank you..

 

G

[thotdoc]

On 8/22/2019 at 7:10 PM, JohnSwenson said:

That is one of the intriguing things, we don't know yet.In the configuration most people will be using it (B side RJ45 to streamer) we have a built in high quality isolating power supply between the external power supply and the circuitry. The B side chips actually have a 4 stage power network powering them. I'm not sure how much of external power supply will get through that.

 

Even on the A side from say RJ45 to another A side RJ45, there is a two stage power network for everything. The result is that the quality of the external supply may not be as important as for other designs. But we really won't know for a while.

 

John S.

Thank you

 

G

[thotdoc]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

It is a VERY HAPPY Friday here.  The pre-production/beta-test boards received this past Monday are working end-to-end! Passing data, music and everything!

 

John found only one very small mistake--which he was able to fix under the microscope by soldering four very tiny capacitors across some cut traces and vias.  Nothing that would cause need for another round of test boards or any risk of going to production with the parts additions.

 

Still to do is the separate code set to load to the clock synthesizer whenever someone sets the Internal/External clock switch to use an external 10MHz reference.

Also the rather complex code to allow for easy field firmware updates via the microUSB port (vertical in the middle of the board).  But that can be done during the small, short field beta test cycle.

Thermal and current draw tests are the very next up. John has some family/church obligations this weekend, so not much will happen until the beginning of the week.  He will also need to make the aforementioned required capacitor additions to a few of the boards so he can send them down to me.  

I can't wait to put EtherREGEN in my system! 

 

Hope everyone has a great weekend,

--Alex C.

Congratulations

 

G

[thotdoc]

On 9/12/2019 at 2:25 PM, Superdad said:

 

A few pages page I gave a semi-formal announcement of US$625.  I'm going to do one final analysis, yet I think it will stay very close to that.

 

Our profit margin is actually very thin at that price. A very modest 2X total parts cost + John's royalty would dictate us pricing about $710.  

Since our products always sell in satisfying volume (close to 5,000 USB/ISO REGENs and 2,800 UltraCaps worldwide) without requiring any ad campaign or Sales/Marketing Manager (I wear that hat among five others! ), I think we'll do alright at a 42% margin (that's before taxes, office expenses, and my assistant's labor).

 

A lot of people--including a few business-savvy friends--think we should price our products higher. But I'd rather sell more units and spread the good sound around the world.  We'll leave the fancy cases and inflated prices to the firms that follow the path we blaze. 

Alex, charge what you need to charge to make a good profit. If the switch does everything you say it does, make a real profit. You re running a business that will need to make enough money to take you through the lean times and you need to save for retirement, etc.  You are not selling a switch. You are selling increased audio realism. 

[thotdoc]

11 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

I tell you what, let's kindly have Alex keep the price at $625 for people who work hard for their money and whose budget is tight. Anyone else who's is highly appreciative of Uptone's product can send Alex any additional amount they fancy. Would that work for you?

You ask what would work for me?  As you are asking me personally, I'll answer you.

 

What would work for me is for Alex to value himself and his efforts as much as we value him.

 

At a broader level, Alex works hard for his money, too...and deserves to get paid for the VALUE of what he brings to us, not paid for producing the mechanical box with minimal mark-up.

 

The VALUE these mechanical boxes bring us is joy and wonderment. I can't put a price on it. Alex and John must do that.

 

In order to get us closer to what is embedded in the 1s & 0s. Alex and John have spent tens of years training and tens of thousands of hours obsessing over details to be able to create the value that the box creates.

 

They should charge what will compensate them for the tens of thousands of hours they spent in order to get to the place where they can create that joy and wonderment...and we need to figure out how to pay for it...if we want the value they are bringing to us.

[thotdoc]

9 minutes ago, thotdoc said:

You ask what would work for me?  As you are asking me personally, I'll answer you.

 

What would work for me is for Alex to value himself and his efforts as much as we value him.

 

At a broader level, Alex works hard for his money, too...and deserves to get paid for the VALUE of what he brings to us, not paid for producing the mechanical box with minimal mark-up.

 

The VALUE these mechanical boxes bring us is joy and wonderment. I can't put a price on it. Alex and John must do that.

 

In order to get us closer to what is embedded in the 1s & 0s. Alex and John have spent tens of years training and tens of thousands of hours obsessing over details to be able to create the value that the box creates.

 

They should charge what will compensate them for the tens of thousands of hours they spent in order to get to the place where they can create that joy and wonderment...and we need to figure out how to pay for it...if we want the value they are bringing to us.

Alex-Sorry I did not see your above post. I get it you want to move it back to the Ether Regen. Sorry.

[thotdoc]

20 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

From @baconbrain's profile I see that he has spent quite a lot of money on Ethernet and server side components, including a SOtM sNH-10G switch, Innuos Statement, Innuos Zenith SE Mk II, Melco N1ZH60, and Mutec Ref-10.  If those things are making a difference to the SQ with his Kii Control and Kii speakers, then our advanced switch certainly will. 

Ba-Da-Boom!!

[thotdoc]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

EtherREGEN web page is up!

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/EtherREGEN

 

Launch announcement and details thread begun:

 

Yup!

[thotdoc]

7 hours ago, cat6man said:

 

Anyone with an opticalRendu planning to be in the first group??

 

Enjoy.

Yes. I'll try it with and without the opticalModule. They are doing different things so I expect 'with' will sound best.

 

That said, at this point, I don't know how much better this all gets.  

 

The changes I've made since going digital were all incremental...until the UltraRendu and the LPS-1.2.  That was a jump that was not just incremental. The Optical setup was closer to incremental over the  ultraRendu I think because the wire leading into my house is optical.

 

I have nothing that has attaked the problem sources that this will. It may be incremental or more...I'm looking forward to it. 

[thotdoc]

3 hours ago, Matias said:

You should definitely try an ISO Regen after the ultraRendu. I used it here and it does make a difference. Most likely after an opticalRendu as well.

 

In my case the option would be to upgrade the generic switch to an EtherRegen an keep the ultraRendu. Or keep the generic switch and upgrade to an opticalModule + opticalRendu combo. Decisions...

The etherREGEN. does something quite different than the OM & OR. I believe, the choice is use both ER and OM & OR or replace the OM with the etherREGEN.