A crowd funded motherboard(s) for audiophiles - Part 2

[lmitche]

After the overwhelming response to the first poll, lets move on to the second part on form factor to see where things head.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, sig8 said:

Larry: I think you mean PCI-e slots. I voted.

 

My rational; I have used CAPS Lagoon, and at times lack of PCIe slots was a big handicap. Four are plenty.

LOL, nice catch, change done.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, marce said:

The basics of a motherboard are going to be the same from one motherboard to another, most if not all of the interfaces (DDR memory, Ethernet, PCI interface) have documented rules on how they must be laid out. Power delivery system has to be optimised and again will follow previous design practices. Then there is testing of the high speed interfaces, never mind the layout...

Differences seen between motherboards is usually number of layers and attention to detail such as minimising skew lengths between skew groups such as DDR data buses etc. all these things add cost and complexity, far easier to look for a decent mature product and use that IMO, as I know what a pain it can be doing motherboards... Never mind getting EMC compliance tests passed. On a good day your looking at 1 moth or more just in layout (full time) never mind the time to generate the schematics, source parts etc. etc. A big and possibly costly project.

Marce, yes I for one am not ruling out that we may end up with an existing product for any number of reasons. Stay tuned.

[lmitche]

For 2 channel upsampling, I see no need for more than 2 direct to CPU PCIE slots, one for an Optane boot SSD x4 lanes and one x4 for a 2 or 4 port externally powered USB card.  There seem to be many motherboards meeting these minimal requirements.

 

A direct to CPU m.2 nvme x4 lanes slot is a substitute for one of the pcie slots above. This is tougher to find, but could make mini-itx possible as a form factor.

 

For multi-channel hqplayer upsampling a third pcie slot at x8 lanes enables cuda support.

 

So to summarize a motherboard with 2 direct to CPU pcie slots, x8, x4 and a x4 m.2 nvme slot covers most needs and doesn't exceed the 16 lane limit on socket 1151 CPUs.

 

As to power usage and on board switching DC to DC converters, many boards are populated with components we don't need such as hdaudio, sata ports, USB ports, and Ethernet nics.  Some boards allow one to disable these components via jumpers which is ideal because the circuitry can't make any noise if powered off. Others components can often be disabled in bios, like SATA controllers and serial ports.

 

Powering down the equivalent circuits in a SOC seems impossible, so software based disablement is the best we can hope for there.

 

So to summarize, a MicroATX board with 2 direct to cpu pcie slots, x4, x8 and a x4 direct to CPU m.2 slot  with the ability to power down unneeded components seems perfect for our needs.

 

Does anyone know of a board that can do this?

[lmitche]

18 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

This is true but modern chipsets especially the latest 'Optane ready' ones are very fast- low latency. The only way is to test this out, move your PCIE card back and fourth between a slot connected to PCH and one direct to processor, shame we don't have the luxury of buying 20 boards and testing them, including some noise measurements.

Having moved my USB card between PCH and CPU direct slots, improvement in SQ from CPU direct slots is easily heard.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

So I naively ask, are there affordable MOBO's where all the PCIE slots are CPU direct?

For 2 channel upsampling, we are fine with 2 direct to cpu pcie slots. That configuration is very common on MicroATX boards. For multichannel, something needs to be connected to the PCH.  My current motherboard works this way and with an Optane stick sounds great. 

 

Otherwise a x299 motherboard could be used, but processors run 114 to140 tdp, so are going to need serious cooling.

 

If the multichannel guys can accept this, we are good.

[lmitche]

30 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Is the sound quality of PCH PCIe lanes (or lack thereof) for SATA / USB / Ethernet etc. not a big deal anymore? Just trying to understand if @romaz 's posts didn't make sense or maybe we're somehow "ignoring" the impact of SATA / USB / Ethernet via PCH?

Over here, a single lt3045 powered 4 port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC. All the motherboard based NICs, USB interfaces and SATA ports are disabled in bios or software. So with two direct PCie slots, one for the USB card and one for the Optane adapter all is good. 

 

Roy was right and this configuration addresses his issues. 

 

Make sense? BTW, 4 of us CAers run systems this way today all booting from Optane drives. 3 of us run with 2 split power supplies for the motherboard.

[lmitche]

13 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Those of us who already purchased tX-USBexp plus JCAT NET Card FEMTO, etc. . . should be left in the cold to deal with PCH PCIe lanes.

Well, if we only have a motherboard with two direct cpu slots, yes.

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

My current setup is running Daphile boot on its own Ext4 partition and with music storage on seperate Exfat partition at Samsung EVO SSD drive supplied with external lps and also connected with SATA filter card. I have tried minipro ext 2TB HDD before with lps but connected to motherboard usb port didn't sound as good.
Won't the USB HDD with more spinning parts and lower speed is lesser in SQ compared with SSD in this suggestion? 

And quote "A direct to CPU m.2 nvme x4 lanes slot is a substitute for one of the pcie slots above." doesn't give us the capability to power it with external lps which is better, am I right?
 

I haven't found an SSD that didn't sound like a blanket on the sound.  I much prefer my lt3045 powered 3.5 inch HDD. People talk about SLC SSD being OK, but it's an old technology.  Optane boot drives are new, two more models were introduced today, and are extremely fast and quiet. Over here, Optane is only one of two active devices enabled on the PCH, the other being the HPT.

[lmitche]

3 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Thank you. Will the number of direct CPU slots appear in another poll, or is that written in stone already?

No, not written in stone, it is the distribution of the 16 lanes across PCIE slots that is the issue.

 

Does anyone know the PCIE lane requirements of the Jcat USB and Ethernet?

 

[lmitche]

1 minute ago, lateboomer said:

I agreed that implementing good lps with adequate noise filtering for SSD is very challenging. I am open minded with this 3.5 inch HDD, but is it not desktop internal SATA drive which needs another conversion to become USB HDD? 

Yes it's a SATA drive in a metal box. 12 volt in via DC Jack with shunt, 5 volts in via USB cable from USB card. I was never able to get a SATA connected drive to sound as good.

[lmitche]

15 minutes ago, davide256 said:

hmm, can you use an optane drive with the Roon core linux distribution? Since I am opposed to ever directly connecting a PC directly to DAC, the SSD noise discussion doesn't matter to me, the faster speed of SSD does as well as supporting at least 2 drives other than the OS drive. Wondering if requirements will bifurcate based on whether the implementation is direct connect or networked...

Nvme support is in Linux kernels 3.3 or later.

http://nvmexpress.org/resources/drivers/linux-driver-information/

 

I don't see any bifurcation direct connect vs. networked unless you are running bridged NICs, in which case you need two. Most boards have two nics, so you should be good.

[lmitche]

OK, so we need to find a board with a three slot direct to cpu PCI Express configuration of 1x8+2x4.  All I can find are x16 or x8+x8 boards. 

 

A few points:

 

• Socket 1151 processors support 1x8+2x4 PCIE lane configs.

• If we can find a socket 1151 board with this PCIE config, we can use processors from 35 watts to full 95 watts.  I am hoping the low-end of this wattage range meets the needs of the low-power crowd.

• These are the highest volume processors from Intel and have the best pricing for sure, running from approx $35 to $350.
• A 1x8pcie+1x4pcie+1x4m.2 would work as well.

 

So I ask those of you with advanced google skills to search for a lga 1151 MicroATX board with a 1x8+2x4 PCI express direct to CPU configuration.

 

If we can't we such a beast, then it would appear we have the specs for a custom (bespoke) board.

 

The alternative is a x299 board, but wattage is 120 watts minimum and prices can be higher. This eliminates the low power crowd from this exercise. I also don't Ike the implications of all that heat.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

 

[lmitche]

21 minutes ago, rickca said:

Well, you proved me wrong!  That is a mATX board with x8/x4/x4 all connected to the CPU.  Unfortunately, no M.2 slot.  I guess I've never looked at Xeon boards before.  This is a very unusual configuration.  It supports Xeon E3-1200 V5 and V6 processors.

Yes, well done seeteeyou! Marcin, thanks for the pointer to look at the Asus server board site.

 

The Asus server board can take a a $35 dual core Pentium up to the Xeon e3-1285 v6.  It also has jumpers to disable many devices. Likewise SATA can be disabled in the bios. I can't find a way to disable the BMC IPMI processor, but I am sure the method exists and instructions are hidden in the manual somewhere.

 

For those that will never use a Nvidia gpu there is the Supermicro x11ssl that has two x8 slots with no plx chip. Again, most things can be disabled with switches. This is a pretty barebones solution.

 

There is also an Asus z270 ws board that switches between 4 pcie x 16 slots for encrypted currency mining priced at $400 on Amazon. It works with the 6700k CPUs most of us have today.

[lmitche]

20 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

Not sure if this is helpful but Lycom makes a PCIe M.2 adapter card that fits in a free PCIe slot. I am using one in a desktop PC which had only one M.2 slot on the motherboard. Works well with my Samsung 960 EVO

Yes, helpful indeed.

I have an Asus PCIE card that does the same. It works great with my second Optane card for making backups from my motherboard m.2 slot based Optane card. Given the way this is all heading with no CPU direct M.2 slots, we are going to need one of these for Optane boot drive support.

[lmitche]

Here is a nice writeup on the various ways PCie lane allocation is accomplished.

 

https://www.tweaktown.com/guides/8482/intel-z370-motherboard-buyers-guide/index6.html

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, rando said:

I wish you luck in this endeavor and will prove no further interruption to discussions.  

 

Thank you very much!

[lmitche]

On 3/9/2018 at 3:32 PM, rickca said:

Also interesting.  Of course, this board is ATX.  Asus must be working on a Z370 WS.  It would be nice if the first M.2 slot connected to the CPU.  I think this is only possible with Coffee Lake.

Rick,

 

I think you nailed it. 

 

The industry is in transition. The z170, z270, c232, c236 solutions look a bit long in the tooth. The new intel solutions based on the z370 equivalent PCH and processors have yet to be released in the server motherboard marketplace. 

 

I am beginning to think the timing of this exercise is too early.  I wonder if we shouldn't wait 6 to 12 months until things stabilize a bit.

 

What does everyone think?

 

Larry

[lmitche]

36 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

32 CPU PCIe lanes from EPYC 3101 with 35W TDP, followed by 64 CPU PCIe lanes from EPYC 3301 with 65W TDP (i.e. 12 cores for $450)

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/epyc_embedded/3101

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/epyc_embedded/3301

https://www.amd.com/en/products/embedded-epyc-3000-series

https://www.amd.com/Documents/3000-Family-Product-Brief.pdf#page=4

 

We don't really need HD caching so even Optane ain't a problem for Snowy Owl.

 

What more could we ask for?

 

 

BTW, it's just really a different paradigm when we actually see the block diagram of their EPYC 7000 series

 

Wow, that's cool, figuratively and literally.  I wonder what the minimum single core speed needs to be for Hqplayer upsampling to DSD 512.  Any idea?

 

Is it shipping yet?

[lmitche]

18 minutes ago, rickca said:

OK I had a look at AMD Threadripper CPUs like the 1900X and x399 motherboard.  It gives us everything we want today ... but it's an extended ATX form factor.  Hmm ... the TDP on this monster is 180W!

 

For example, the Asus Prime X399-A motherboard ($300) with a 1900X CPU ($450) gives you the following directly from the CPU:

 

4 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (single@x16, dual@x16/x16, triple@x16/x16/x8 mode)

1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)
1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)

 

There's a nice block diagram in this article

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11685/amd-threadripper-x399-motherboards

 

So my question is ... does AMD have something around TDP 95W with this kind of architecture for PCIe lanes?

 

 

Where is @Quadman?  He tested lots of the the new Ryzen stuff but I never saw a summary of results.

[lmitche]

25 minutes ago, rickca said:

Yes that's the big question for those of us interested in doing DSD512.

There is a post in this thread:

 

From above Salaryman's post says this config will do polysinc-xtr:

 

Xeon e5-2683 v3 (14C28T) + X99 + DDR2133 8G x2 non-2s

 

That's a 3ghz processor at turbo speed so the Epyc 3000 16 core processor should work at 95 watts.

 

[lmitche]

Thanks everyone for your interest in this topic.  I have decided that it is best to wait a few months until the market stabilizes before continuing this effort. There is a ton of new processor, chipset and motherboard product in the pipeline, and given this, it is too early to pull the trigger on what can be best called a moving target.

 

In the interim, like most of you, I will eye market announcements and when I see the pipeline slowing expect me to revive this thread or start a new one.

 

The good news is that everything seems to be moving in our direction from a feature and performance standpoint, and I expect we will have some great alternatives coming from the renewed AMD and Intel competition.

 

Stay tuned,

 

Larry

[lmitche]

Marce,

 

I am stopping the effort, at least my involvement in it. The timing is wrong regardless of the design. There are very few boards available that meet the requirements of the majority of poll respondents, a micro atx form factor motherboard with 3 directly connected slots to a processor capable of dsd512 upsampling. These requirements have been defined through the polling process and subsequent discussions.

 

There will be many more products meeting these requirements coming to market in the next months, and it is my judgement that it best to wait and revisit this topic once the pace of change has slowed down.

 

And what is wrong with design by committee? I purposely approached this effort with a goal to build concensus in requirements. I think that has been accomplished.

 

Feel free to start another thread if you would like to run a parallel effort. Technically, you are most likely better qualified than me to take this effort on.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, lateboomer said:

I am not knowledgeable in pc but could you enlighten what is lack of with this motherboard P10S-M with Socket LGA 1151 which highlighted by Seeteeyou? Since it has 3 pcie in 8x 4x 4x configurations which direct connect to cpu, then it should be more than enough to be used for this project. Is it not?

This Asus WS product looks to be exactly what we need in a core 7 class motherboard. Unfortunately core 7 has already been made obsolete with the rollout of core 8 and 9 processors. As a result z270 motherboard production is being discontinued by many manufacturers including Asus.

 

The next generation processors from Intel and AMD appear to support more direct PCie lanes, with mores cores in lower wattage packages. Today any investment in time or money made in a new CPU or motherboard is likely to be obsolete in less then 6 months. Therefore I am going to wait until things calm down.

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

If the focus is on features, one can always wait for “the next big thing”. The supermicro X10SBA for example is chosen by quite some enthousiasts (including myself)  and a manufacturer because of it’s sound . I believe it was launched somewhere in 2012 or 2013. 

No doubt, for the low power crowd, the Supermicro X10SBA is a great board. At $175 it is tempting to buy one just to have a listen.

 

Nevertheless the majority of the poll respondents asked for a MicroATX board with at least 3 direct to CPU slots. The Supermicro has one slot, and is a mini-itx form factor, so doesn't meet our criteria.