Adding a pre amp

[KingRex]

So I performed an interesting comparison for myself and posted it on another thread here.  It pertained to software affecting sound, but it applies here.  Distortion or not, what we all seek is accurate reproduction of music.  What is accurate?  Is it perfect bits or perfect reproduction of the source.  I think its perfect reproduction of actual voices and instruments.  What I did as an experiments was play a James Taylor song on my stereo.  Then I picked up my Yamaha acoustic guitar and played the song myself.  In listening to my instrument I had a base or shall I say reference sound /tone I was looking for.  It now became easy to see the playback of my server incorporating AO and HQ player did a much better job creating playback through my hifi that sounded like the real instrument.

 

Sooooo, if a preamp is put in and out of the signal path and in the end judged to bring the sound closer to the sound of the actual instrument, it is then benefiting the playback irregardless of any distortion added.   

[KingRex]

I heard on another forum about 20% of the recorded information is lost between the mic and the tape.  Hold that kernel of thought and think records and RIAA now.  Once again lost information.  

 

It seems there are 2 thought camps here.  One purity to the source and the other attempted reproduction of assumed real instrument sound from the speaker.

Per my opening statement above, if you have no preamp and go for accurate to the source, right off the batt you are missing 20% of the "music ".  If you really ascribe to no preamp, would you not also have all RIAA resistors in your phono pre removed as they are coloring the source as well as being more material in the signal path.

 

If you use a preamp,  you are adding distortion and coloring the music.  Its a bit of a crap shoot whether you are adding back in color that gets your speakers to give an accurate picrure of what was lost from the point of the mic forward.  IMHO, this is where building a preamp is a very difficult art.  There is nothing simple or text book about recreating something lost.

[KingRex]

I tried to state the above in a neutral position. I am only trying to say I feel either topology is inherently flawed.  Therefore it is only a personal decision to use or not use a preamp.  There is no right or wrong. 

[KingRex]

It is a little funny to hear someone say sound quality is subjective, but in a roundabout way say my subjective opinion is wrong.

[KingRex]

My RIAA comment is probably incorrect as it is known what is being eliminated and brought back.  I thought RIAA was used to reduce the amount of wall Groove cutting required to reproduce Bass notes in the recording.

As far as subjective, I'm going to make an assumption that most everyone posting here has heard many systems and has a opinion of what they have heard and like.   Our subjective opinions are based upon experience and personal preference.  A newbie would be totally confused by this conversation. 

[KingRex]

Something else that may have been discussed on this thread but I don't remember is the quality of equipment. I had a Bel Canto one DAC that was fed by a very nice linear power supply. It did an acceptable job as a DAC. Ran directly from that to my amps was not right.  It was very flat as in no dynamics.  It was smeared and unpleasant to listen to.  I also had a Khozmic passive.  That was very clear and accurate.  Nothing I could say was wrong, just not the end for me.  A Chord Dave and Blu may be the ticket by themselves, but I have never heard them in my system.  My point is that a supporter of no preamp could have unacceptable results if the quality of the DAC and associated volume attenuation in the device are not of a quality equal to or better than the rest of the system.  It could end up a choke point as it did in mine.   

[KingRex]

Agreed there are definitely design and implementation as well as products that are "better" than others.  My point is a low quality DAC with integrated volume does not give a more high quality "better" sound than a high quality DAC feeding a high quality preamp.  It works the other way too.  A low quality preamp will not give as high quality a sound as a nice DAC with integrated volume.   Subjectivity is true when all products involved are of the same caliber.  

[KingRex]

I am a preamp person myself but a friend has the Dave and Blu.  He does not use a preamp. The DAC is his volume control.   He is blown away at how amazing the SQ is. 

[KingRex]

Why would a passive attenuator such as a step ladder resistor or autoformer not be as good as any Internal control from the DAC.  Is there any difference.  The DAC probably uses a semiconductor.  I don't know that that is any better or worse a way to drive the output.  

[KingRex]

1 hour ago, Ajax said:

If you believe that then I suggest you investigate pro audio gear such as the Benchmark Media range. The HGC PRE / DAC at $2,200 or the older refurbished DAC1 HDR (which I own) for only $1,200 . Exceptional engineering with zero bling.

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac3-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter

 

"Benchmark DAC1, DAC2, and DAC3 converters are designed to directly drive power amplifiers and speakers. Benchmark converters feature adjustable low-impedance passive attenuators at the XLR outputs that can be used to optimize the interface to the power amplifier (or powered monitor). This unique Benchmark feature optimizes the gain staging between the DAC and the power amplifier. Proper gain staging cannot be overemphasised. When audio stages are properly matched, each component in the audio chain is able to operate at its optimum signal level, and the system performance is significantly improved."

 

"Benchmark Media Systems’ DAC3 HGC is evidence that an engineering-focused company—one that seems to spend more time staring at instruments than testing its devices with their ears, and that cares more about transparency than it does about whether or not you like the sound their products make—can produce a product of astonishing fidelity and emotional expressiveness. Science works ... never underestimate a good geek."

- Jim Austin, Stereophile

 

"The Benchmark DAC3 offers extremely low levels of harmonic distortion from all its outputs. Intermodulation distortion was similarly vanishingly low. No power-supply–related spuriae can be seen, and the random noise floor lies below –160 dBFS! When the DAC3 decoded dithered 16-bit and 24-bit data representing a 1 kHz tone at -60 dBFS, the increase in bit depth dropped the noise floor by more than 30 dB, indicating that the Benchmark’s resolution is at least 21 bits. This as good as a DAC can currently get! All I can say is 'Wow!'" 

- John Atkinson, Stereophile

 

They also manufacture the excellent ABH2 power amp for around $3,000, which was awarded Stereophile's Class A recommended component category.

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier

 

For a total of $5,000 the DAC3 and ABH2 combination is all you will ever need for a front end, just add speakers, large boxes and blue lights!

 

All the best,

 

Ajax

 

Amps are a whole other can of worms.  I don't think any amount of talk is going to convince someone SS vs Tube has some sort of "better " sound.  I know a guy with $100,000k in SS who just got a set of tubes.  He's not getting rid of the SS.  He just wants choices as both bring a party to the table.  

[KingRex]

How does a DAC perform volume attenuation?   It has to have some sort of material inside it that varies something in order for the amp to know it needs to send more or less power to the speaker.  I'm asking out of pure ignorance.  My question on a passive vs internal in the dac volume control was to understand just this.  I get what an Alps pot, Autoformer, resistive ladder do.  I was once told how Pass Labs does it but don't fully get it.  I thought it had something to do with a semiconductor that had a ladder inside it. I really don't know.  If your going to say its all software, what is the software driving.

Thanks. 

[KingRex]

I have been working towards more transparency throughout my whole system. There is definitely a limit to where I want to go.  To much and it starts to sound like Wilson /Dagistino. I very much dislike that sort of recreation in playback. I  find my setup more enjoyable to listen to than the Magico at the local store. Too clear and not rich enough bass.   Call my setup full of distortion and say it as an insult.  I don't care.  It is easy to overdo a good thing.   Clear and accurate is not necessarily good.  It is one way to listen.  For those who want to spend the time bleaching everything, go ahead.  Expose all the warts throughout your whole system,  fuss and stress every day over every little micro failing in your playback.  Or, let a little fuzz ice the cake, sit back and let a comfy glove of music drape over you.  Its a choice.  Drive yourself crazy seeking perfection.  Some people live that way.  I'm borderline, but I can see limits.  

IMHO, to get all the benefits you espouse you should have dedicated power through and an Equitech power supply isolating the mains, Isolated grounding boxea such as Entrique, at least $1500 interconnects, $1000 power cords, $4000 isolation racks etc,etc,etc.  Why would you forgive all the transgressions in performance in those areas but dogidly apply it to just a volume control in your DAC.  It would be untrue to your philosophy.  My point, your chain of gear is aimed at a $50k plus setup.   If you dont have that money, you have warts elsewhere.   Your over pure playback may expose them.  You may create a tail chasing situation that can be very hard to resolve.