Lavery, Bryston,Ayre and Naim

[Gulinias]

I have a chance with a lot of driving to hear all these dacs. Has anyone heard them and what are your opinions? I would say that the Ayre and the Bryston are more in the area I am willing to spend so any comparison would be helpful. I would be interested in the Naim if it was by far the best and I can hear the Ayre and the Naim at the same place.

 

[davidR]

I think you are doing the best thing you could do; going to listen to all of them and making your comparisons. You may be surprised what your ears tell you and you won't truly know until you do.

 

[earflappin]

I think you are going to have a challenge with your evaluation process because unless I am misinterpreting what you meant you will hearing not only the DAC, but these other peoples' room, speakers, cables, amplifiers, etc.. And then you will have aural memory to contend with. Do you have an existing DAC that you are familiar with that you could take with you as a reference at least?

 

 

[casual viewer]

Bingo! I would also suggest if possible:

 

1. take some music you know by heart how it sounds and see if they will put it on their server, preferably CD quality or better.

2. try to hear the real thing before you go.

3. try not to space too much time between the different auditions.

 

[Mr.C]

hmm, is this the Naimunity or the Unityqute? If you don't already know, Naim is coming out with a version of its dac without a cd drive for about half the cost.

 

I've heard the Lavry and the Bryston. They are different. The Bryston sounds more cohesive while the Lavry is more "separated". I don't know if this is true instrument separation or something added.

 

[casual viewer]

here is how i would handle the different environments. try to listen on gear as close to what you have: same brands if possible, solid state / solid state or tube / tube, same brand speaker. sounds like at least one dealer has 2 of the pieces you want. decide which you like better in that store. then, ask if you can take it home and ship it back within the week. given what you are spending, the cost of shipping is well worth the chance to really listen in your own environment.

 

[Bob Stern]

My impressions of Ayre v. Bryston are at the following link. I own the Bryston, and I borrowed the Ayre for only a few hours.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Amarra-4-based-ULN-8-Ayre-Bryston

 

I also own a Lavry DA-10 (which I really should sell, since I don't use it anymore). I would rank it well below the others in resolution. I have not heard a DA-11, but I have not read anything that suggests it is markedly better.

 

[jonmarsh]

This should be a key question- they Ayre is USB only, and on USB, the Bryston will be at a disadvantage compared to what it can do with a good SPDIF source. Does the dealer have source units you're familiar with, or will you be bringing one?

 

[Gulinias]

I was able to hear a well broken in Ayre and a well broken in Naim. The Naim in my listening is the better dac. It opened up the speakers far more than the Ayre did and was more detailed as well. If they cost the same the decision would be easy but they do not and Ayre was far from bad. The Bryston is about 2 hours the other direction so they can be together. The good part is the Bryston dealer has Focal so I can hear it on what I own.

 

The Ayre is good and certainly good enough to but but it reminds me of Arcam gear versus top of the line Cambridge Audio gear. The Ayre sound sweet and musical with nice bottom end control. You think wow this is really nice. The Naim then just opens everything up. The speakers disappear more and the people seem more real. The music has more drive also. This is similar to what I hear on the Cambridge gear. I own a Cambridge Audio 840C so I guess you see what I favor for long term listening. I am hoping the Bryston does this also as I really could but do not really want to spend the 3500 for the Naim piece. I listened through a Mac with Pure Vinyl installed, This is what I had planned on using and that certainly did not change based on what I heard.

 

[fidelio]

i'm not sure it's possible to really "audition" multiple digital pieces w/o actually comparing them in a setting in which everything else (room, amp, etc.) remains the same. however, i know from experience that as a practical matter this is usually not possible.

 

i've had various good digital playback. the one that i hold in highest esteem is my naim cd5x, which i have set up w/ a flatcap 2x power supply. their standalone dac has come out, and i would be interested in listening to it, but it's pricey.

 

i think component selection is, or should be, a matter of personal taste. listen as best you can to things in your budget and buy what you like.

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

(In response to Mr.C) I think you are confused with Naim's product lineup...

 

The product that competes against the Berkeley Alpha; Bryston BDA-1 and Ayre QB9 would be the Naim DAC. This is £2000 (UK Price) and can be enhanced/upgraded with either the Naim XPS2 or PS555 external power supplies.

 

The NaimUnity and UniQute are both UPnP products which stream audio from a NAS or Computer. Both build in analogue and digital inputs, DAB and Internet radio and amplification - just add speakers. There are sketchy details of a Naim UniServer which will be similar with a HDD and ripping facilities.

 

Eloise

 

[souptin]

The transatlantic price differences shouldn't come as a shock, but they still do.

 

For example, I can find a UK price for the Bryston of around £1990, same as the Naim DAC, so logically one would want to compare the two based on that sort of a budget. But the US price for the Bryston is the same figure, only in dollars, wheras the Naim is a whopping $3500, getting on for twice the price (which does at least correspond somewhat with the exchange rate)

 

Now I appreciate that these are not mass market items and there's shipping costs blah blah blah... but are these boxes of electronics really so refined that they need to travel in first class and stop over in the airport hotel penthouse suite to recover from the journey? Those long haul flights must be a blast what with all them high rolling high end hi-fis puffing away on cigars and trying to cop off with the stewardesses.

 

[Audio_ELF]

That was exactly my thought - about the pricing difference.

 

At least we have the good manufacturers over here (Naim, Linn, etc) and the American's have to deal with Ayre and Bryston :-)

 

Eloise

 

[Gulinias]

I appreciate the point both of you are making and the fact is that in my opinion the Ayre and the Bryston were just 500 dollars less than the Naim there is no contest. I want to make clear at least as far as the Ayre there is no doubt in my mind that the Naim is better. I understand the asynchorus usb dac and the theoretical advantage. The fact is the Naim just flat opens up the stage and allows you to see into the recording to a far greater degree than the Ayre. The Naim also sounds purer. I like it so much I would not even look at the Bryston if it was slightly lower priced. It is not and I have to decide how much I want to pay for the advantages the Naim has. The Ayre is a wonderful product and I see why all of you liked it. They were both burned in so it is not a case of the Ayre not being at its best. I doubt the Bryston will be as good as the Naim but for 1500 dollars less I have to see. I know there are people on this forum that feel the Bryston is the better than the Ayre. If I did not have to buy a comp also I doubt anything would prevent me from buying the Naim. I will be able to hear the Bryston and the Sims Audio on the same gear. I just wish I heard them all on the same set up. (Mine)

 

 

 

 

 

[fidelio]

well, bryston is canadian ... but it's true, the english equipment is great stuff. i have several pairs of spendor loudspeakers, have and have had sugden, exposure, and creek pieces, and i treasure my michell tt. however, that's not on point to this thread, so ...

 

[Gulinias]

I have had some Brit gear over the years. I had Linn,Naim,Kef, Arcam, Mission and Cambridge gear. It all was very nice but I also have had Thiel, ARC,CJ,Rowland and B&K among others. This also was nice gear. I had Paradigm, Bryston and Mirage which in its own way was quite nice. the point of this is there is no magic country to get gear from and the origin of the product is the last thing I think about when evaluating gear. I am looking at Bryston and now Simaudio dacs as well as the Ayre and Naim. I am sure they are all fine and have considered Red Wine also. I am not sure where I will end up only time will tell. That being beside the threads intent have any of you heard the Sims #00 dac. I know they make very good gear and I have a chance to hear it but always interested in peoples comments as I can never hear in in my own system unless I buy it.

 

[daviddever]

Yes, the answer is that US customs import charges, not exchange rate, have the biggest effect on retail price, especially when quantities are smaller (say, 15 palletized units at a time) due to limited manufacturing capacity.

 

[Lowlands]

Folks,

 

Ayre, Bryston and Naim are on my shortlist (plus Weiss, thats about it). I'll have to put up with European prices... so that's a plus for the Weiss and Naim. Anyway, they're all inside the budget.

 

Topic not touched is balanced vs unbalanced. Assuming the Naim is a great piece of kit.... my gear is fully balanced, source to power amps. Any thoughts / experiences on feeding such a chain from a Naim source? How much do you loose..? Also, anyone knows if the other ones (Ayre, Weiss, Bryston) are truly balanced (instead of merely a 'balanced' output terminal)?

 

[daviddever]

Naim has always taken the position that single-ended signal transmission is appropriate for the tuned-length, short signal paths typical to its systems (where power amplifiers are located close to source and control / preamplifier).

 

Also - due to the wide variety of symmetrical circuit implementations (transformers, servo-balanced, etc.), it's better to remove this from the equation for simplicity and performance's sake.

 

That said - as many audiophile products with balanced inputs are, in fact, single-ended at gain-block level, the real benchmark of a preamp remains its ability to handle a wide variety of sources (balanced or unbalanced, current- or voltage-gain) while adding no coloration to the sound.

 

Short answer - it shouldn't matter, provided your preamp is well-designed to properly handle single-ended sources.

 

[Lowlands]

Thanks for the quick & informative answer...

 

Makes sense by the way (I guess I knew). However, it is often said 'all else being equal, balanced is better'. What if I put a slightly 'better' (sounding) single-ended signal into a fully balanced pre that sounds slightly better when fed a balanced signal? I know, I'll have to try for myself..

I use Krell KAV280p into Electrocompaniet Nemo's by the way (hence the Avatar..). I do remember reading someplace that the Krell sound better when fed balanced. Current source/DAC is Wadia850i (balanced signal processing starting by inversion in digital domain).

 

[fidelio]

of course the old naim pieces had their own proprietary four and five pin ic's, or it was at least old school, other english makes used it too - naim is one of the last holdouts, as all the other audio makers have gone to rca or "balanced." i have some of that still, between the naim power supply and cdp, and also phone stage. now it's optional, and rca's are generally included, but if you're a hardcore naimer, you use the multipin interconnects. i actually tracked down a cable that went from 5-pin to balanced, but never bought it. fwiw, i view naim as being one-of-a-kind. but setting up w/ a full naim rig is gonna set you back some serious sheckles.

 

"balanced" can mean different things; it's mostly related to the recording industry, where it is the standard, due to long runs in gigs and studios. not sure i could tell the difference on a 3' cable, all other things being equal .... "balanced" internal circuitry is a diff. story. it's not that easy to determine the level of "balancedness," to coin a word, there is a little bit of voodoo marketing going on w/ some of these units.

 

[Lowlands]

Fidelio,

 

Understand you're part of the Naim hardcore.. :-)

 

On the level of "balancedness" issue. Agreed. As an outsider it is hard to determine. Hence my question r.e. the Weiss DAC2, Ayre and Bryston (& forgot all about the new PS Audio PWD). Anyone any insight as to their layout / topologies and do they in effect process & provide two phase inverted signals starting from the digital domain?

 

On the other hand, it's not hard to assume my Nemo's are truly balanced, just looking at the inside.. But then, that also may be speculating.. since I'm not an engineer..

 

Hans

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I've had the Ayre and the DA-11 to play with and both were sweet pieces of kit. Both sound great. I think the Lavry is a bit more "pro" sounding and the Ayre a bit more "audiophile", but honestly, I'm not a fan of the Ayre design. That is, I'd strongly suggest staying away from any USB-only DAC. That PS in your computer is a mess and your sound will improve audibly by putting something between it and your rack. I (and others) have had tremendous success injecting a "transport" in there, like an M2Tech HiFace or an ART Legato or a Sonicweld Diverter. The latter two are superior to the former, as you'd expect with the price increase. But that does dictate a DAC with an SPDIF input.

 

[Nicholas.Bedworth]

The Lavry can sound very well indeed, through its AES and S/PDIF inputs. Driven by the Weiss INT 202, using Audioquest Raven AES interconnect, and the Odyssey Kismet amplifiers, you can basically "import" the recording venue to your living room. The sound is spacious, non-digital, and completely effortless.

 

Via USB, the Lavry is not at its best. I've also seen considerable variability between USBs ports on various computers, so going FireWire is a safe choice.

 

If you are limited to USB, the new Lindemann USB-DDC 24-96 converter will save the day. http://www.lindemann-audiotechnik.de/en/products/usb-audio/. It's $630 roughly in the U.S. and it produces S/PDIF and TOSLINK outputs.

 

Keep in mind that most PCs have TOSLINK (usually hidden in one of the earphone jacks) and higher-end models will have FireWire.

 

The Lavry with S/PDIF is superior to the TOSLINK, even when using a glass fiber optic cable. BUT the TOSLINK is OK, and definitely better than going straight USB to the Lavry DA-11.

 

Overall, the INT 202 ($1300) is the best solution of all, but of course it's twice as much as the Lindemann. For a DAC of the Lavry's quality, AES and S/PDIF are the way to go.