Best USB cable to use between computer and dac?

[barrows]

"DBS" system goes. It is easy enough to listen test this. Get two identical AQ USB cables with the DBS system. Power up the DBS on one (give it a few hours to stabilise) and on the other, leave the DBS unpowered.

Now Switch the two USB cables in and out of the system and listen. You need two cables, because the Bias charge introduced by DBS needs some time to stabilise in the cable, just powering it down and listening for differences will not be as consistent a test as using two cables with the DBS constantly powered.

This test will not tell one if DBS makes a cable better than another company's cable, but it will settle whether DBS makes any difference at all.

Synergistic's "active shielding" is a different approach, as current is carried on the shield, rather than adding a bias to the dialectric. "Active shielding" can be suitably demonstarted by pulling the plug on the active shield power supply-BTW, if one has ever heard this demo, it is not a subtle effect! Once again though, this type of demo only proves that "active shielding" is effective in Synergistic's cables, and not that a cable with "active shielding" would necessarily outperform another brand without.

I am curious how Synergistic's new USB cable with "active shielding" will perform...

 

[Mark Powell]

Prompted by Jud's comments earlier I have spent the last hour comparing a 'hardware store' 10 foot USB cable with an 18 inch low-cost one I happened to have. One is 6.7 times longer than the other. The computer was in the same place throughout.

 

The short one sounds more 'transparent' but the difference is marginal.

 

I would suggest that the great difference in length must have FAR more influence on sound quality that the difference between equal length cables of different price or construction.

 

[goldsdad]

"[...] Now Switch the two USB cables in and out of the system and listen [...] it will settle whether DBS makes any difference at all."

 

If the listener knows that there has been a change of cable when they hear a change of sound then that will settle nothing. The heard change could be due to a genuine sonic difference, or it could be an illusion due to expectation or some other bias, or it simply could be the hearer noticing something within the audio sample for the first time regardless of their familiarity with the sample.

 

 

[barrows]

Gotta call you out this nonsense:

 

"If the listener knows that there has been a change of cable when they hear a change of sound then that will settle nothing. The heard change could be due to a genuine sonic difference, or it could be an illusion due to expectation or some other bias, or it simply could be the hearer noticing something within the audio sample for the first time regardless of their familiarity with the sample."

 

While it is fine to say that you yourself might be subject to "expactation bias" such as this, it is insulting, and not accurate to suggest that anyone else could not, without any bias, hear an actual difference. You have no idea what I actually hear, and how accurate my observations are, and in suggesting such you are just plain wrong.

I will not argue this point any further.

 

 

 

[Jud]

If the listener knows that there has been a change of cable when they hear a change of sound then that will settle nothing. The heard change could be due to a genuine sonic difference, or it could be an illusion due to expectation or some other bias, or it simply could be the hearer noticing something within the audio sample for the first time regardless of their familiarity with the sample.

 

These problems are certainly possible, and I cannot pretend that if I seem to notice differences that is final proof of anything. I do try to take various steps to ameliorate the potential problems:

 

- Expectation or other bias: My preferences in the past have not tracked price across different manufacturers, but have consistently been for certain manufacturers' products. Based on this, I believe raw price isn't swaying me, and that my impressions of differences are not completely random and illusory, but that I do like the sound (or hopefully, lack of same) of particular manufacturers' designs. As a bulwark against the possibility that I am favoring a particular manufacturer due to expectation bias, I have my wife do blind testing. She doesn't even know that I'm changing cables (versus some other component), or, for that matter, *whether* I'm changing cables or keeping the same one in the system, let alone the price or manufacturer of a particular cable. All I ever do is ask her if she prefers one of the two samples she's heard. She has gotten curious a couple of times and asked what I'm fiddling with (not that often over almost 25 years we've been together - as I said, she's not an audiophile), and on those occasions I've gone back and told her after all listening tests are done.

 

- Could be the hearer noticing something within the audio sample for the first time: I repeatedly go back and forth between cables with the same sample, so that if I notice something for the first time with one cable I listen for it with all cables multiple times to hear how it is rendered by each.

 

Granted, these steps are final assurance of nothing except the fact that I'm trying. :-)

 

[tarquineous]

Sorry about the offending comma, ItemAudio. I'll have to check the grammatical correctness of my usage.

 

In the future, I will be glad to post any applicable findings on Metallurgy and Quantum Physics, as it relates to cables and signal transfer. In the mean time, I will listen to a few cables and note any appreciable changes.

 

I think the Brits are fine chaps overall.

 

[tarquineous]

If a person hears a difference, and prefers the sound of one over the other, then it's pretty well settled on which one he prefers.

 

If you then proceed to ask a hundred people about it, and ask yourself another batch of questions, based on possible uncertainty, you will probably unsettle your initial confidence.

 

It doesn't have to be that complicated.

 

[goldsdad]

Yet again(!) you resort to misrepresenting me after I disagree with something you've posted.

 

I did not say that you or "anyone else could not, without any bias, hear an actual difference."

 

I said that it is possible that you would hear a genuine objective difference. I also said that it is possible for you, like any human being, to make an error of judgement. The key word in this paragraph is possible.

 

Why is that "nonsense" and how is it "insulting"?

 

 

[goldsdad]

"These problems are certainly possible, and I cannot pretend that if I seem to notice differences that is final proof of anything"

 

Thank you!!! I'm relieved to not be alone in a universe where human perception is not proof of reality.

 

 

 

[Jud]

Realized while reading your note that the cable for my USB printer would fit the bill. Might well try it at some point in the near future, and if I do I'll let you know what I hear.

 

So I did, and I will.

 

The test tracks were two CD rips to AIFF with XLD: Down Along the Dixie Line from Gillian Welch's latest, and We All Go Back To Where We Belong (previously unreleased) from REM's career retrospective final album. The player was Audirvana Plus.

 

The Gillian Welch track is a very sparsely produced, plainly recorded track, just Welch's vocals, Dave Rawlings' harmony vocals in the background, and their two acoustic guitars. It's very slow paced (I heard Welch say in an interview that perhaps her primary talent is an ability to sing very slowly - this track proves it), with a deep raw beauty.

 

With the Audioquest Carbon USB, the vocals, instruments and soundstage all have a sense of air and depth around them. The microdynamics and low level details give you the sense that there's a real person with a body singing and that there are two different acoustic guitars playing. I initially didn't understand why I could hear tones reverberating in the body of one acoustic but not nearly so much in the other, so I did some research. It turns out Rawlings plays a smallish 1935 Epiphone Olympic with cello-shaped F-holes that almost reminds me of a mandolin (not quite as small as that), while Welch plays a big old 1956 Gibson J-50 with the classic round central sound hole. There's much more audible reverberation coming from the sound hole of the Gibson, and that's quite plain to hear with the Carbon USB.

 

With the generic USB cable from my printer, most of the low level detail was gone, and the tangible sense of air and depth along with it. The soundstage height and width was close to the same, but the music was coming from 2D cardboard cutouts rather than instruments and people with bodies. Some of the emotional depth and beauty was lost. There was much less to distinguish the sound of the two acoustic guitars because there was almost no low level reverberation to be heard from Welch's guitar. Nevertheless, the song still had beauty and was still enjoyable. The generic cable conveyed enough that I felt a person could reasonably happily live with it in his or her system and not feel compelled to run out and buy something better.

 

The REM track is a 'big' track with a lot going on. Though Stipe's vocals are tremendously well recorded and way out at the front, there are backing strings and horns. The pace fits the theme of love blooming at the beach on a summer's day, not terribly fast, but it never sags.

 

With the Carbon, the clarity of Stipe's voice is startling. That, together with a huge soundstage and Stipe's vocals on top and out front practically hugging you, creates a tremendous feeling of listening to an actual human being singing, and an intimate emotional atmosphere within the larger environment of the song. That's appropriate, because I believe Stipe, who's gay, is singing about meeting the love of his life: "This might be my innocence lost; I can taste the ocean on your skin, this is where it all began.... Is this really what you want?" (Other than saying he's French, Stipe has zealously guarded his privacy.) In fact I think Stipe might be trying to slip something by us in the official lyrics, which say "Imagine lying next to me; you should, and your reputation talks," which makes very little sense. What I can swear he is really singing is "Imagine lying next to me, your shirt and your reputation tossed." Makes a hell of a lot more sense, and leads nicely to the lyric "I can taste the ocean on your skin" a couple of lines later.

 

With the generic USB cable I was ready to hear something analogous to what I'd heard on the Gillian Welch track - not the same sense of palpable near-reality as with the Carbon, but still enjoyable enough. I was profoundly disappointed. No particular clarity to Stipe's voice; not an enveloping soundstage, nor even a particularly large one. Not a person with a body singing, not even a cardboard cutout, just a point source voice with other point sources for backing instruments and vocals. No midrange resonance to vocals or instruments. No particular emotional connection, just some little ditty with Stipe singing about who cares what, really? I could hardly believe the near erasure of one of my favorite tracks on a 40-song album. I could never be happy with a cable like this in my system; I'd pay for next day air for a Forest or Carbon rather than have to listen to this any longer.

 

Now perhaps I simply wasn't lucky enough to find the 'right' generic cable; but I assure you, this was definitely the *wrong* generic cable.

 

[Julf]

Interesting. I did find the Audioquest patent in the US patent database. Not too many other patents or applications in this area (apart from the famous Monster Cable ones). The patent (# 7126055 from 2003) is actually interesting reading.

 

Seems the Audioquest patent is based on the idea that an ordinary cable slowly gathers an electric charge, and that this charge is somehow beneficial (explaining why cables need to be "run in"). What Audioquest does, is "pre-apply" the voltage to get automatically run-in cables.

 

Well, this is of course something that should be reasonably easy to measure - that charge (if it exists) should be measurable. Anyone with electrostatic measurement equipment handy?

 

I did also come across this link:

Audioquest Cable Theories Exposed

 

Julf

 

 

[Audioseduction]

Jud, Excellent write up! Thanks for putting it into words so well. I wish I could write like that.

 

 

[Jud]

And I wish I could afford Pass monoblocks, so maybe we're even. (I have a sneaking suspicion you've got the best of it, though.;-)

 

[Audioseduction]

Listening to music is my passion and a get away from the real world. It's like take a vacation without leaving your home. Can't get any better then that. I do a lot of research before of fork over my money for equipment. Thats way it's very important to have access to excelent reviews like your. I strongly feel that the WW Starlight Platinum USB Cable is worth every penny for it. Thanks again for your insight on premium USB cables!

 

[russe41]

Since it transfers in data packets, It doesn't care if the copper has one 9 or 25 9's of purity. It either will pass data or it won't, so waste your money if you want, i'll be spending mine on downloads.

 

[tarquineous]

It's the resultant sound most of us are concerned with, not just data packets, and whether they are passed through or not.

 

I, and most, if not all members here will spend our money the way we want to. Finances are a personal decision.

 

[russe41]

 

Genius is more often found in a cracked pot than in a whole one.

 

P.S. USB gives no sound

 

[Jud]

Since it transfers in data packets, It doesn't care if the copper has one 9 or 25 9's of purity.

 

And since timing of the transfer of the bitstream out of the DAC's buffer occurs in packets as well...oh, wait....

 

And since the metallurgical, design and other build qualities of the cable have no effect whatever on electrical interference and RFI through the power, signal, and ground connections, and since those in turn have no effect on the signal put out by the DAC...oh, wait....

 

And since nothing you don't know about audio and USB cables could possibly affect anything, because that's how the world works, nothing we don't understand can ever affect us...oh, wait....

 

Yep, your logic is impeccable.

 

[tarquineous]

Apparently some people think in packets.

 

Anyway, I ordered an Audioquest Carbon USB cable, from the Cable Co. They've been very good to deal with in the past, and give advise and support.

 

I'll report on how it fares with Cardas and LAT.

 

[russe41]

Thats all well and good but will be seen as errors.

So it will either pass or it won't. Sounds like alot of people are getting ripped off with high priced cables and like it. Maybe the bits look more round and with fuller bass.

 

[russe41]

If it was me buying,I would make sure it's solidly built and not crazy priced and just listen to the music.

 

[russe41]

The audioquest you bought is a reasonable price for peace of mind. Some people just go crazy for no reason and I believe waste their money.

 

[russe41]

Some interesting reads no matter which sie you fall.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil

http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire.htm

 

[Mark Powell]

My non-audiophile friends are totally stunned by my mid to high priced system. As much by the JRiver interface meaning not having to insert CDs as anything else. But then they were equally stunned when it was lower cost than it is now. They, like most people have mini-systems, or the (quite good for what it is) Bose Wave box. But if I unplugged my Debussy, inserted my earlier Dacmagic and asked them if they heard any difference they would (quite correctly) think I was nuts.

 

It's like amateur photography. Have you ever seen anything so full of 'stuff' advertisements as a photography magazine? Or fishing. A fishing friend once said "The fish don't care how much your rod cost."

 

But it is all good fun. USB cables, Windows versus Mac, the 'DAC of the week', and the rest. And why not?

 

[Mark Powell]

Those links are interesting. I will always tend to take note of what Nelson Pass has to say. He brings up the issue of cable length. I did this earlier here, but it was totally ignored, possibly because it was not 'obscure' enough.

 

Some of the claims are ludicrous, not just cables. There is one outfit who sells a cryo-treated 'audiophile' laptop. Yes, it will behave differently from a regular one. After half an hour dunked into a tub of liquid nitrogen it will probably not 'behave' at all.