FORGETTING the Digital to Analog conversion part, what is BEST Digital source?

[mansr]

3 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

1. Usb has 5v bus noise issues but no jitter issues, or does USB have both noise AND jitter issues, it's just the jitter for usb isn't as bad as HDMI & S/PDIF?

USB audio has rate control, so jitter is entirely dependent on the local clock. Some DACs have good clocks, some bad.

 

3 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

2. HDMI & S/pdif have jitter issues but no 5v bus noise?

Those don't supply power. Since they lack rate control, the DAC clock has to be synchronised with the source, and this tends to add a bit of jitter. How much depends on the implementation.

 

3 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

3. 1s and 0s are 100% accurate in either case?

Absolutely.

[mansr]

9 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

if noise wasn't an issue, then there would be no need for "usb toys" or special cables.

It is yet to be shown that those widgets actually do anything beneficial for the analogue output outside a few pathological cases.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

why do we have to wait until the year 2017 for these issues to be addressed

The audiophile industry relies on constantly inventing new issues in order to sell remedies for them.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

What?  this falls under the: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", please site your examples.

Anything made by Shunyata, Synergistic Research, Nordost, Shun Mook, and many others.

[mansr]

13 minutes ago, barrows said:

No examples there of anything you said?

They all make products that serve no real purpose or are insanely priced for what they do.

[mansr]

22 minutes ago, barrows said:

What makes you think that Ethernet does not have the same noise as USB?

Perhaps the fact that Ethernet is transformer coupled, which, although not perfect, certainly blocks a lot more noise than USB.

[mansr]

8 hours ago, barrows said:

Now when the memory player guys start talking about unscrambling the bits, I mean, really?  What the hell are they talking about.  It just seems to be entirely fabricated.

It makes no sense whatsoever. FWIW, the photo shows an off the shelf OCZ (now Toshiba) SSD.

[mansr]

27 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

do you have to call people "smart ass" ??

I thought Australians said arse.

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, barrows said:

Loss of low level details.

And why can't this be measured with a suitable test signal?

[mansr]

10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

However, I would like to see a clear and definitive explanation from the "Bits are Bits" crowd as to why the different OS's, including those with reduced start up programs running etc. , sound a little different

They don't. Nothing to explain.

[mansr]

10 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Ok, great, glad you brought the clock up.  Is that clock that you use required for the enet part or necessary for the usb part....

 

If you had a streamer dac where no usb is needed, would that require the same amount of clocks as if you had 2 separate boxes?

 

Reason I ask is I believe i read that a dac requires 2 clocks, so it sounds as though you would have 3 clocks in enet->usb->dac solution where an enet->solution only has 2 clocks?

Ethernet interfaces require a clock, typically 25 MHz or 50 MHz. USB interfaces generally need a 12 MHz clock. The DAC clock should be a multiple of the sample rate, and most good implementations use separate crystals for 44.1 kHz 48 kHz base rates. In an asynchronous design, the quality of the DAC clock is what matters. The Ethernet and USB clocks only need to meet the requirements of the respective interface specs.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, barrows said:

We have found that the close in phase noise of the Ethernet/USB XOs are quite important for sound quality.  We still have not discovered why for sure, but are working on figuring it out.  This really surprised us as well, until we tried it, then we were forced to accept it.

Until you can show me how to measure it, I must refuse to believe it.

[mansr]

Just now, sandyk said:

Some claim it is due to "Software Jitter" ( the designer of cPlay for Windows for example)

Ain't no such thing.

[mansr]

Just now, barrows said:

It is easy to hear the difference, not really a subtle thing at all

Then it must also be readily measurable.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

even I, who am very difficult to convince of anything, believe that our ears are far more capable than measuring equipment.  (god made our ears, man made test equipment)....

I am an atheist.

 

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I remember swearing high resolution DSD was better than PCM when everyone on this board kept yelling nyquist proves that anything beyond x couldn't be heard.

Nyquist has nothing to do with PCM vs DSD. Some DACs have demonstrably lower distortion playing DSD than with PCM.

[mansr]

53 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I would hope that even an aethiest (which is fine, i didn't mean to go there), would believe the human ear is more capable than a measuring device that man made?

Why would I ever believe such a ridiculous thing?

[mansr]

10 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

What about ringing in someones ears....is that just in someone's brain, or does it actually exist.

Ear ringing, or tinnitus, is by definition the conscious perception of a (persistent) sound without a corresponding stimulus of the ear. The cause can be in the inner ear itself, in the auditory nerve, or in the brain. I wouldn't say such a sound actually exists any more than a hallucination does.

[mansr]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

other people??

Hell is other people.

[mansr]

7 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Perhaps I will meet you both there one day?

How do you know we're not already there?

[mansr]

37 minutes ago, Ryan Berry said:

They sounded better in some ways and certainly improved a few other factors in the units (not to mention they were way easier to set up in the shop), but the overall sound quality was definitively worse in other ways and uncharacteristic for Ayre, preventing them from standing out in the market.

In other words, it lacked the Ayre house distortion. If an amp stands out, it's doing something wrong, IMO.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

What one is chasing is for the recording "to stand out" - the machinery making it happen must be totally 'invisible' - compare it to the ideal cinematic projection system.

For once, I agree with you.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

I just want to thank barrows for "Ayre chooses not to use global negative feedback in their circuits" - my emphasis - it is all too rare that people distinguish global vs. all or local neg. feedback

 

moving on:  Benchmark is using a feed forward circuit in their AH2B

What we need is a feedback-and-forth design.

[mansr]

12 minutes ago, Ryan Berry said:

I disagree with your assessment. The goal is to be as transparent as possible, not to try and "improve" the music with what the designer may happen to like. 

I agree with that. But then, how does an amp "stand out"? The goal should be for all amps to sound exactly alike: transparent.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

Do you have any thoughts on USB-C as providing any easier path for high SQ?

USB-C is just a different connector. Apart from permitting higher power transfer, it is electrically identical to other connectors.

[mansr]

17 minutes ago, barrows said:

These things are not debatable, it easy just to look and see what the clock is, then you will know.

How do you reliably identify an unknown crystal? The markings tend to be rather generic.