Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[firedog]

41 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

A humbling moment ...

 

occurred yesterday evening when I visited a good friend and listened to his newly updated system. (Speakers alone cost 40 k Euro ..) The experience was absolutely mind boggling and intense. Regardless of genre, his system tackled it all with a finesse and detail which sometimes left me speechless.

 

As much as I really like my Kii Three 2.1 setup, it is definitely in another class when comparing to such heavyweights. Unfortunately for me (and my budget) experience continues to show that truly top level electronics have their price .... Is there a end of the audiophile Rainbow?

No one sane ever said the Kiis can't be beat. Obviously if you are going to spend 40K Euro on speakers and big amounts on suitable electronics to go with it - you can do better. I still say in a smallish space you are going to encounter quite a challenge to beat the Kiis on price/performance, especially if you want something approx full range like the Kiis.

 

You have a fantastic system. Probably better than 99.9% of the setups in existence. Can't you just be happy with it?

I'd also like to know what your friend's system is.

[firedog]

I think there are comparisons at GearSlutz forum. 

[firedog]

You can see in my sig what I use. Kii told me it's just something each person has to try and see what works or doesn't. That makes sense, as every setup is different. 
If you want to try something inexpensive, the little iFi AC iPurifiers seem to work. Buying 2 or three isn't a  big outlay. I asked iFi and they claimed they don't do anything that limits power delivery to the Kiis. 

[firedog]

53 minutes ago, Mazza said:

 

The Kii’s have *lots* of SMPS’s in them. I often wonder how much they are responsible for generating noise on the mains?

 

 

Why? Just because common audiophile wisdom says SMPS are noisy doesn’t mean it’s necessarily  true. There is zero problem with the technology. The problem is only with inexpensive, not particularly well made ones. No reason to assume the PS’s are particularly noisy or that some other type of PS would necessarily be quieter. 

[firedog]

1 minute ago, fpalm69 said:

firedog,  did you use the iFi AC iPurifiers on the Kii's?  Did it sound better?  I have two in my Amazon cart.

I have them on the line/power strip feeding my system to try and separate the digital and analog sides that are  downline from the wall. Seems to make a small improvement in SQ. I also like them for some of their other features and they certainly don’t do any harm. 

[firedog]

What happens if you set them to "0"? You should be getting the most bass boost then. If that's too much, gradually dial the number down towards -12  till you think  it sounds as it should. If  the "0"  setting isn't enough bass, then either you are insane (😉) or something is wrong.
You may also find they sound better to you farther out into the room. I have a much smaller room and even though they sound fine in the corners (which is the position that makes the most sense given the size of the room), I prefer them farther out in the room and closer to my listening spot. 

I also find it a little odd that Kii doesn't give new users a bit more guidance about how to use the boundary settings. 

[firedog]

11 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I have just about finished dialing them in today and I can say an unequivocal yes.

 

 

I have been slowly going from -6 down.  At -10 things just jumped out.  I am now at -11 on both speakers.  

 

Listening to these two albums to "verify"

 

Soundtrack of Blade Runner 2049 and

 

BT's  Untitled Album

 

 

 

The inside corners of the speakers are 4.5 in from the rear wall and toe in puts the other side 7in.  They are 11in from the sidewalls.

 

 

With some more listening there may be some more tweaks.  For now call me Mr. -11.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you have time, I’d be interested in your impression with and without the BXT engaged: Does the BXT just add more bass, or does the combination somehow sound better/different in other ways?

[firedog]

5 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

Some useful information from Wim Weijers;

 

- The speakers are tuned so that the intended toe-in is 15 degrees off-axis. That means you should just about see the inside (or outside) wall on each speaker from the listening position.

Setting toe-in so that you see the outside walls will give a bigger sweetspot, so that's usually how they set up the speakers at shows.

What's best depends on room because you change the time and distance between first reflections.

 

- The shelf filters are not tilt-filters. What they do is raise/lower everything above/under your chosen frequency with chosen amount. So in essence when you increase high-shelf at 3000hz with 2dB, you get a small uphill slope at 3000hz and then flat to 20khz.

 

- They are working on an alternative to the Control which are more suited to the audiophiles, the Control are really most suited for studio use.

 

My experience with the BXT system was mind-blowing. Holy cow how dynamic, tight and shockingly loud those small boxes could play. Still think Kii should give us a tilt function instead of shelf-filters

I’m a bit surprised by your “0” setting: I personally wouldn’t think your speakers are “free standing” in that position. I’d try getting rid of the bass boost with the contour setting and trying a higher boundary number first. 

Interesting info about the audiophile oriented control. That’s been rumored for about 2 years,  hopefully it will come out in the not distant future. The rumor is it will be something more like a digital preamp-maybe with a display that’s visible from a few feet away? 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Saburo said:

Does anyone have the sampling rate of the Kii's ADC when using the XLR inputs with analog sources? Its not stated in the manual and I can't find that spec anywhere.

AFAIR, the Kiis convert everything internally to 93.75hz

mentioned here: https://www.signals.uk.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/HFN-Aug-Kii-Audio-Three-Reprint-LOW.pdf

And has been confirmed by Kii elsewhere:

 

And described here when talking about another Bruno designed speaker: https://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf

Quote

 

The clock circuit is the same as that used in the CC1

except that the sampling rate is set to 93.75kHz instead

of one of the more traditional audio rates. This is

specifically done to improve the performance of the SRC ch

ip.

An uncommon clock frequency reduces the odds that mix products between the incoming clock and the internal clock fall inside the PLL loop bandwidth of the SRC.

 

 

[firedog]

4 hours ago, Saburo said:

Thanks for the responses. I emailed Kii's German tech support with the same question and this is the message I got back from TJ this morning: 

 

"I wouldn´t know for sure, would have to ask Bruno when he´s back. What I do know for sure however is that the whole internal processing runs on a high, non-typical audio samplerate (no multiple of 44,1 or 48kHz), because the SRC that Bruno wrote is running on our DSP as well and outclasses any SRC chips available by almost 30dB, the jitter suppression is stunning even below 1Hz."

 

I've kicked around the idea of running the phono stage into a Mytek Brooklyn ADC outputing DSD 128 into the Kii via its remote but if I understand TJ  and others here the Kii's DSP engine will resample it again so its all for naught, or what am I missing here? 

 

 

 

If you like the sound of DSD, I’d try it. In my experience, you can still hear the difference between a DSD source and a PCM source sent to the Kiis. 

[firedog]

11 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

It should be very clear even with speakers far more affordable.

Yes, the issue is that some people assume that with any system that converts all DSD to PCM, you somehow "lose" the sound of the DSD. My experience is that you don't if the system is decent quality,  and especially with the Kiis this isn't an issue someone should worry about. 
For the same reason there are turntable owners who are very happy feeding the output of their phono preamp directly to the Kiis, and they are very happy with the sound of the "vinyl" they get after the Kii converts the analog input to digital. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Cazzesman said:

Well it has taken me 18 months but I have finally found a 2nd hand pair of Kii 3's in my home town.   1st 2nd hand pair I have seen in Australia for sale.   They were traded in to the local distributor along with the stands and Controller.     Pick up is on Monday so pretty excited.

 

I do have a question for the wise re the connections.    I currently run the following...

 

CAPS (Lagoon - WS2012 R2 Essentials OS with Audiophile Optimizer v2.20 in Ultimate Core mode - Fidelizer 8.1pro -128g SS HD + Sotm USB exp card) via USB Curious Cable into Mutec USB 3+ reclocker. 

 

The Mutec has AES output and the Kii3 has the AES input.    MY current Lampizator L5 dac does not have AES input so I use the Coaxial from the Mutec.   I have a 110 ohm AES cable that I have never used.

 

With the Controller attached to the Kii 3 via the Cat 5, can I still connect the 110 ohm AES cable from the Mutec to the Kii 3 to access the CAPS.

 

By doing it this way I free up the Coaxial on the Controller for something else.    The Optical on the Controller will be for my TV.

 

My 2nd question relates to setting up a remote to control the Controller from the comfy chair.   I have a Harmony Universal 650 remote.  Will that do the trick or will I need to buy a  RC5 type or Apple Remote?

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Regards Cazzesman

The controller works with either an RC5 type or Apple type remote protocols. There’s a definition in the controller you set for the type of remote you are using. Once you do that all you have to do is pair the remote acc’d to how it is supposed to work. 
I’m not familiar with your remote. If it works with one of those protocols it will work. 

[firedog]

As far as power, Kii has told me that they have no recommendations. Just try with and without and see what works.
 

Room treatments. I left my corner bass traps up behind the Kiis because I don't really have anywhere else to put them. I doubt they are contributing anything, as when I stand between them and the back of the Kiis I don't feel/hear any output. The cardoid dispersion definitely works. 

I have treatments on the back wall b/c it's a small room and I sit directly on the back wall. The treatments prevent bounce  back.

 

I had the same setup before the Kiis, and it sounded good. No question that there are less room effects and more clarity with the Kiis. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Emlin said:

Thanks. I will want full details of your room though. And thanks for your personal opinions, which are just that.

That is really over dismissive and excuse me for saying so, not well informed. It's not "just his personal opinion". Ask Kii - I guarantee you that they will be the first to agree that the Kiis don't defeat room acoustics. 

 

The StupidOne is correct: the cardoid dispersal pattern and the time alignment of the drivers mean that you have much less "junk" sound echoing around the room than with traditional speakers - but that doesn't change room the essential room acoustics. It just means the Kiis give the room "less to work with" when it messes with the sound that reaches our ears. That's why the Kiis sound so much cleaner and clearer than almost everything else.

 

Like many rooms, mine has a strong bass node - in my room at around 40 hz. The Kiis can't change that. If they put out sound at a frequency that excites the node, I get a big bass boost at that frequency. DRC or some other method is needed to fix that. The Kiis can't do it on their own. It has nothing directly to do with the cardoid dispersal eto., or lack thereof. 

[firedog]

3 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

 

My conclusion is that you will absolutely need to pay attention to your room acoustics regardless of the speakers you choose to use. While Kii will make the problems lesser than most speakers, the room will nevertheless wreak havoc on your sound quality if given half a chance.

 I think you are overstating your case here. The Kiis deal with several common problems to do with in room sound perception from speakers. So in many rooms you are left with relatively minor problems and not the results of room "havoc". For many people the Kiis mitigate the problems enough that any additional improvements that panels or DRC can add are small. They exist, but aren't major. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, fpalm69 said:

How do I get the playlist into Roon?

Open look in Qobuz web. Click on open in Qobuz (app); favorite in app.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, ragwo said:

You could also use Sorbothane disks underneath the stands. Good decoupeling and sturdy. Just remember to buy discs for the right weight. 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F370999993667

Those look like just the thing - 1 set of 4 per speaker should work well, and not cost an arm and a leg. 

[firedog]

12 minutes ago, coot said:

To Kii Three owners:

Are there any of you that listen primarily to classical? Would you directly address the "big" sound of this product for classical music that is fully large scale ie, full symphony orchestras and + chorus + organ, etc as opposed to string quartets, chamber groups, etc. Name specific works if possible.

 

I am considering purchase and the above description applies to most of my listening. Thanks.

Exactly one of the reasons I bought the Kiis.

I went to hear a performance of Mahler's 6th Symphony in London (NHK Orchestra, Jarvi conducting). The next morning I auditioned the Kiis. I played back the very powerful and dynamic recording of Mahler's 6th (Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic) and was amazed at what a good job the Kiis did in giving a credible illusion of the size and power of a large orchestra. Not saying it sounded  "just like it", but it was fantastic for any stereo system, especially a small one. Much better job of it than my conventional system with medium size tower speakers could do. 

Same experience with Saint Saens "Organ Symphony" or a piece like Holst's "The Planets". The Kiis have no problems with dynamic swings and do a great job of "separating out" all the various pieces being played. You can hear all the elements. 

 

Unless you like to play at ear splitting levels and/or in a very large room, the Kiis will do the job. Yes you could spend big bucks and get some giant speakers that will outdo them, but those won't play well with most rooms. The Kiis will. 

 

I'd still audition them before spending the big bucks, though. Tastes differ, and I can't say you will have the same reaction to them I do. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, coot said:

Thank firedog. Exactly the specifics I am looking for.

Sadly, the nearest dealer is 9 hrs away.

Have you talked to them? Will they send you a pair for audition? Or sell a pair with a trial period? Maybe they can help you find an owner closer to you so you can hear a pair?

[firedog]

38 minutes ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

 

This gets my vote. No such thing as too much sand under speakers. 

 

I filled mine with sand. Haven’t weighed them because there’s no way I’m going to pick them up. What’s for sure is that they aren’t vibrating....

[firedog]

3 hours ago, bobfa said:

Here is a video about placing them on the BXT

 

 

 

At about 105lbs the BXT makes a great stand. No ‘sand’ needed🤗

Hey Bob-

I’ll trade you my original stands for a pair of BXT. I’ll even ship you the sand for free. 😁

[firedog]

6 hours ago, coot said:

For those listening via usb:

Have you found that any of the usb add-on noise suppression/removal devices still make a difference?

Tried two, didn't think they helped.

[firedog]

3 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

Sometimes I wonder how transparent the Kii's really are to upstream changes. My old Devialet seemed to be much more revealing ..., 

Or that isn't it at all. The Kii Controller has galvanic isolation, so maybe those USB devices just don't do much for them. 

[firedog]

46 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

Point taken. Still, I have the impression that the Kii‘s seem to be quite impervious to subtle changes, such as sample rate, phase of the power chords, and quality of the interconnects (ethernet) between the speakers.

 

Perhaps it‘s just my hearing that is not really noticing these details anymore, or my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember with other systems I have owned, that the above examples where much more noticeable when changed.

 

 

As far as sample rate, I think the Kiis with their internal SRC, etc., are designed to be indifferent.
I'd be shocked if they are truly "indifferent" to actual changes-as opposed to imagined ones- as they seem to be much more revealing of what's on a recording than about 99% of systems. 

[firedog]

21 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

 

Now you have me thinking, and I ask myself, if I had ever heard a recording with the Kii‘s that I just couldn‘t listen to ....?

I haven’t. But I do find that some non acoustic recordings sound too bright to me, and I tone them down a bit with DSP EQ. I almost never find acoustic music like jazz or classical that I feel needs that treatment. I think it is just due to the modern techniques that purposely make the sound bright.