Hattor Audio Class D (Hypex)

[m5sime]

I'm back! It has been a long time since I started this thread and got my opportunity to do some real listening with my new Hypex-based amps. I decided to go the route of Apollon NC800 SLM as already very eloquently described by Roberto in his earlier post. 

 

The build quality is good, but the case is a little cheap on the top-plate with some potential rattle on vibration. The internal build is superb. They add their own small switch mode PSU to power the 12v (I think) front panel switch and mains-on sense for the Hypex boards. This keeps things safer on the front panel and also uses the soft start feature.  I went the way of the Sparkos OPA. As already mentioned, Tibor at Apollon is extremely detailed and happy to respond with his experience, advice and knowledge.

 

I have been running the amps in (it took a long time to get this setup as I moved house and needed to re-decorate and then set everything up). So far, I am very happy with the sound.. Very organic, well controlled and clearly driving my KEF LS50 speakers more precisely than my previous Cambridge Audio Azur 840A. I am feeding the amps balanced audio via my own made XLR's using Furutech cable. My source is a Mytek DAC as DAC and Pre-amp. I am feeding the DAC with SPDIF from Sonos and also via balanced AES via a Mutec USB-AES reclocker. The USB source is a mRendu.

 

The amps run very cool.

 

I have much more listening to do, but as an admirer of Bruno Putzeys work, having heard the most sublime high end audio demo in Windsor UK (his similar tech Mola Mola pre-amp, class D mono blocks ) and Vivid Audio’s Giya G4 - I knew how well this tech could sound. 

 

I have made some other upgrades for my system re-setup.. Added a Mains Conditioner from Puritan Audio Labs, and recently listened to mains cables from IsoTek at a dealer - and was rather disappointed to hear that my own Belden cables were easily outclassed by the IsoTek Evo3 Premiers - so I bought 4 of them.

 

I have my eyes on the new Elac Adante 61https://www.elac.com/product/as-61/ speakers which I have heard at two shows now and both times sounded very very good (using Elac electronics which they acquired and already based on the lower tier of Class D from Hypex (UcD).

 

So I firmly recommend Apollon.. really nice guy, great engineering and perfect packaging of what I assume to be still the best available Class D tech available.. 

 

Simon

 

Oh and not that I know how well an iPhone7 video capture really gets the accuracy of a good hifi setup.. But here are a couple of videos.. One of mine in progress (part made lounge units etc). The audio level could have been higher..

 

Video of my setup

 

And this video from a pair of speakers reviewed to be 'inaccurate' and not perhaps real hifi.. But both times I have heard demo's I really liked the sound they produced.. JBL  https://www.dropbox.com/s/ps91z8bsfb8t22g/Video 23-02-2018%2C 12 14 29.mov?dl=0

 

 

 

[mocenigo]

Hi Simon

 

1 hour ago, m5sime said:

I'm back! It has been a long time since I started this thread and got my opportunity to do some real listening with my new Hypex-based amps. I decided to go the route of Apollon NC800 SLM as already very eloquently described by Roberto in his earlier post. 

 

Very happy to have been useful to you!

 

1 hour ago, m5sime said:

The build quality is good, but the case is a little cheap on the top-plate with some potential rattle on vibration. The internal build is superb.

 

Well, I did say these are MODU cases. The potential rattle of the top (and bottom) is the only thing one may dislike about these cases because they are not fixed to the front and rear, but only on the sides. I do not think this is a problem, you only notice if you do knock on the lids, but they would not rattle in any other circumstance - maybe if your sound pressure is 130 Db, but then you would not notice that anyway - I have them tucked inside the small wood stand under my speakers and there is no rattling whatsoever, not even if I listen to Kraftwerk at stage levels (did yesterday).

In fact, they have some pluses wrt "fancier" cases such as the Takechi because they come with the internal steel mounting bottom, which is critical in getting this very clean appearance without any screws visible from below.

 

it is a piece of cake to replace the feet as well. Too tall to my personal taste, but YMMV  I put some thinner shock absorbers.

 

1 hour ago, m5sime said:

[...] I am feeding the amps balanced audio via my own made XLR's using Furutech cable. [...]

 

Which Fututech cable for the XLR?

 

And about possible loudspeaker upgrades, these amps are also excellent for use just with their "first watt", so even high efficiency speakers can come into play. Just make sure your sources are noiseless, because there is a 29Db gain here...

 

1 hour ago, m5sime said:

I have much more listening to do, but as an admirer of Bruno Putzeys work, having heard the most sublime high end audio demo in Windsor UK (his similar tech Mola Mola pre-amp, class D mono blocks ) and Vivid Audio’s Giya G4 - I knew how well this tech could sound. 

 

I have heard this very same combination at the Munich HiEnd show this year. 2 of the 5 best systems in my humble opinion had the Mola Mola Kaluga amps. Yeah, I am sure the NC1200 sounds better than the NC500 mostly on the bass, but even bigger differences depend on the realisation of all the other circuits. Still, the Kalugas give you a very, very, very good idea of what to expect from well designed NC500 based amps.

 

 Roberto

 

 

 

[m5sime]

39 minutes ago, mocenigo said:

Hi Simon

Very happy to have been useful to you!

 

Which Fututech cable for the XLR?

 

 Roberto

 

 

Hi Roberto - thank you for such a detailed reply. The cables I made from this I recall Furutech FA-220

 

I went a little crazy and made a separate screening layer by inserting the cable into PVC tubing and then an outer braided sheath, and then 'cosmetic' braid.. Given the performance of balanced audio this is overkill.

Simon

[mocenigo]

1 hour ago, m5sime said:

 

Hi Roberto - thank you for such a detailed reply. The cables I made from this I recall Furutech FA-220

 

I went a little crazy and made a separate screening layer by inserting the cable into PVC tubing and then an outer braided sheath, and then 'cosmetic' braid.. Given the performance of balanced audio this is overkill.

Simon

 

Yes, you are clearly crazy, but we all are in this Hobby! how much does the Furutech FA-220 cost? Where did you find it? I cannot find it in Germany by the meter.

 

I have different self-made XLR interconnects. Following the advice of another Italian DIYer I bought a few meters of http://www.electronicsurplus.it/product/3104/Cavo-schermato-2xAWG18-Silk-Teflon-Silver-Rhodium%2C-flessibile.html and some regular Neutrik connectors (so no EMC, no gold plated pins, just the regular ones with silver plated connectors). It has been manufactured for various militar and aerospace audio transport applications by Filotex. It is used for instance by the ESA. The signal strands are rhodium plated, instead of silver (rhodium has a 38% conductivity, so it is lower than silver, but in fact it reduces diodic effects on both the external surface and on the contact surface between the OFC copper and the plating) whereas the shielding is massive (I think at least 2mmq) and silver plated. A kind of thin kraft (oiled/butcher) paper and cotton isolation of the two signals, silk filler (yes, silk!), teflon insulation on both sides of the shield. The result was that it is way better than both the Van den Hul and the Summer Cable Epilogue I had before. I covered it with a blue diolen fabric hose. You can see the result of the 2.5m cables in the attached  picture.  I keep the monoblocks under the speakers, as I wrote before. I included a pic of the monoblocks fitting in the loudspeaker stands - I find it cool ?
 

[m5sime]

49 minutes ago, mocenigo said:

 

Yes, you are clearly crazy, but we all are in this Hobby! how much does the Furutech FA-220 cost? Where did you find it? I cannot find it in Germany by the meter.

 

I have different self-made XLR interconnects. Following the advice of another Italian DIYer I bought a few meters of http://www.electronicsurplus.it/product/3104/Cavo-schermato-2xAWG18-Silk-Teflon-Silver-Rhodium%2C-flessibile.html and some regular Neutrik connectors (so no EMC, no gold plated pins, just the regular ones with silver plated connectors). It has been manufactured for various militar and aerospace audio transport applications by Filotex. It is used for instance by the ESA. The signal strands are rhodium plated, instead of silver (rhodium has a 38% conductivity, so it is lower than silver, but in fact it reduces diodic effects on both the external surface and on the contact surface between the OFC copper and the plating) whereas the shielding is massive (I think at least 2mmq) and silver plated. A kind of thin kraft (oiled/butcher) paper and cotton isolation of the two signals, silk filler (yes, silk!), teflon insulation on both sides of the shield. The result was that it is way better than both the Van den Hul and the Summer Cable Epilogue I had before. I covered it with a blue diolen fabric hose. You can see the result of the 2.5m cables in the attached  picture.  I keep the monoblocks under the speakers, as I wrote before. I included a pic of the monoblocks fitting in the loudspeaker stands - I find it cool ?
 

 

 

Very nice!I got the cable via eBay I recall but this seller in Australia - http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/categories/Plugs-%26-Components/Wire/ - Love your cables! 

[mfin]

6 hours ago, m5sime said:

Oh and not that I know how well an iPhone7 video capture really gets the accuracy of a good hifi setup.. But here are a couple of videos.. One of mine in progress (part made lounge units etc). The audio level could have been higher..

 

Video of my setup

 

I know how well a video captures how a hifi sounds. It doesn't. It's a complete waste of time, every time. A photo is just as useful, just to picture the system for people.

 

Are you running tidal through your Sonos Connect? Is that used a lot? Big improvements you could make there.

 

Also is that a Brooklyn Dac or Dac+? ...and what PSU are you running it on if any?

[m5sime]

26 minutes ago, mfin said:

 

I know how well a video captures how a hifi sounds. It doesn't. It's a complete waste of time, every time. A photo is just as useful, just to picture the system for people.

 

Are you running tidal through your Sonos Connect? Is that used a lot? Big improvements you could make there.

 

Also is that a Brooklyn Dac or Dac+? ...and what PSU are you running it on if any?

 

Tidal and Spotify through the Sonos Connect and SPDIF into my Mutec re-clock. 

Also same sources via Roon into a microRendu and USB into the Mutec. The Rendu is a better source, but the Sonos is much easier to use. I finally built a Roon core using their dedicated linux build (rock I think). That has made it easier. 

 

The Rendu and the Brooklyn (not +) are running from two linear PSUs

[mocenigo]

8 hours ago, m5sime said:

Video of my setup

 

An important advice: keep the monoblocks close to the loudspeakers and use very short power cables. Use then longer interconnects. This is the optimal approach for sound quality.

[m5sime]

8 minutes ago, mocenigo said:

 

An important advice: keep the monoblocks close to the loudspeakers and use very short power cables. Use then longer interconnects. This is the optimal approach for sound quality.

 

Thanks. I planned to experiment with that setup. My dealer said with a 2-3M cable run for speakers it’s not much benefit. 

 

I already have the cables and this would mean new interconnects and very short speaker cables. 

[Ralf11]

a lot depends on how much EMF noise is in the area

[m5sime]

8 minutes ago, mocenigo said:

 

An important advice: keep the monoblocks close to the loudspeakers and use very short power cables. Use then longer interconnects. This is the optimal approach for sound quality.

 

Thanks. I planned to experiment with that setup. My dealer said with a 2-3M cable run for speakers it’s not much benefit. 

 

I already have the cables and this would mean new interconnects and very short speaker cables. 

[GUTB]

It’s generally accepted that class D sucks, but I should have some opportunities to listen to some this weekend at THE Show.

[m5sime]

28 minutes ago, GUTB said:

It’s generally accepted that class D sucks, but I should have some opportunities to listen to some this weekend at THE Show.

 

??

[mfin]

56 minutes ago, GUTB said:

It’s generally accepted that class D sucks, but I should have some opportunities to listen to some this weekend at THE Show.

 

It's generally accepted that at certain price points Class D now provides exceptional sound.

[mfin]

4 hours ago, m5sime said:

 

Tidal and Spotify through the Sonos Connect and SPDIF into my Mutec re-clock. 

Also same sources via Roon into a microRendu and USB into the Mutec. The Rendu is a better source, but the Sonos is much easier to use. I finally built a Roon core using their dedicated linux build (rock I think). That has made it easier. 

 

The Rendu and the Brooklyn (not +) are running from two linear PSUs

 

Have you tried using Roon's upsampling?

My Dac+ with SMS200ultra I run like this with great results:

 

[m5sime]

5 minutes ago, mfin said:

 

Have you tried using Roon's upsampling?

My Dac+ with SMS200ultra I run like this with great results:

 

 

Thanks! I haven’t tried any upsampling. I’m not sure my current Roon core has the guts to do it. But I could use a Mac Mini instead. Overall, I prefer simplicity and one of the reasons the Sonos isn’t binned. No server etc.. always on and ready to go. Unlike my Roon and Rendu combo. 

 

Ill try try tomorrow and see the results 

[mfin]

I ended up putting an i5 Intel NUC into a fanless case for running Roon Rock on, powered by an LPSU. It's a great way of getting something dedicated that will self update in all respects and have nothing unnecessary running on it at all.

 

Definitely experiment. I run an SOtM SMS200ultra not a Sonore Rendu, and that supports DSD128 to the Dac+ when it's set to DOP mode, but DSD256 when set to Native mode (which the SOtM did support with that dac until a few months back).

 

Roon will still do the first unfold of MQA before the upscaling happens, and with the settings I use, if I am listening to MQA on Tidal it sounds better than just passing it all untouched and letting the Dac+ do it's MQA thing. So, it's win win for everything playing from Tidal for me.

[m5sime]

5 hours ago, mfin said:

I ended up putting an i5 Intel NUC into a fanless case for running Roon Rock on, powered by an LPSU. It's a great way of getting something dedicated that will self update in all respects and have nothing unnecessary running on it at all.

 

Definitely experiment. I run an SOtM SMS200ultra not a Sonore Rendu, and that supports DSD128 to the Dac+ when it's set to DOP mode, but DSD256 when set to Native mode (which the SOtM did support with that dac until a few months back).

 

 

I have some more research to do it seems as I couldn't find any of the DSP settings in Roon on my Rock (I haven't loaded the FFMPEG codecs). I also haven't installed HQP on it.. Not sure how to.. so will have to look into it.. 

[mfin]

The codecs simply go in the Codecs folder, just browse your network for the Roon Rock and connect as a guest and look in the Codecs folder.

 

The instructions for getting the codecs file is on Roon's roon rock page, PM me with your email address if you like and I'll zip up the file and email it to you.

[mfin]

This might sound silly but have you assumed you need HQP installed to upscale? You don't.

[m5sime]

3 minutes ago, mfin said:

This might sound silly but have you assumed you need HQP installed to upscale? You don't.

 

Thank you. I had assumed as I cannot find any of the settings for upscaling in my Roon instance but sure I had seen it when it was running as an app on my Mac Mini as the core. My rock is a rebuilt micro pc without a lot of horsepower. 

[mfin]

It might be you just need to install the codecs, at least that is most likely (but I don't know). It's only a quick drag and drop.

 

[GUTB]

Roon definitely has upsampling. It’s in the DSP settings.