Hattor Audio Class D (Hypex)

[wgscott]

5 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I don't have any experience with these amps. 

 

Maybe you should STFU and stop there.

[GUTB]

2 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Maybe you should STFU and stop there.

 

Class D sucks, the implementation doesn't make a difference.

[Supperconductor]

9 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Class D sucks, the implementation doesn't make a difference.

LMAO

[divebaum]

Let me rephrase, then. Does anyone besides GUTB have any input on this topic? 

 

Thanks!

[wgscott]

9 minutes ago, divebaum said:

Let me rephrase, then. Does anyone besides GUTB have any input on this topic? 

 

Thanks!

 

Well his opinion is the only one that really matters.

 

For the deluded, Hypex is outstanding in terms of sound quality and value.  Having said that, the DIY option is in many ways ideal, and really requires a minimum of DIY skills.

[divebaum]

14 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Well his opinion is the only one that really matters.

 

For the deluded, Hypex is outstanding in terms of sound quality and value.  Having said that, the DIY option is in many ways ideal, and really requires a minimum of DIY skills.

 

I think I could have handled the DIY,  but Hattor seems to offer far better engineering skills and build quality for less money than I would have spent buying the NC400 module + kit direct from Hypex, which is sold out at the moment any way. 

 

Which is why I'm wondering how the NC500mp module matches up against the NC400 one used in the DIY kit. My speakers are Dynaudio Focus 160s (86db at 4ohm), so the extra power from the 500mp will be welcome. I just don't have a sense for the difference between the different Hypex modules and couldn't glean much from the Hypex website. 

[GUTB]

22 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Well his opinion is the only one that really matters.

 

For the deluded, Hypex is outstanding in terms of sound quality and value.  Having said that, the DIY option is in many ways ideal, and really requires a minimum of DIY skills.

 

Class D sucking is a fact, not my opinion.

[afgverhart]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Class D sucking is a fact, not my opinion.

Well, it’s not a fact at all in my setup. The Hypex NC400 kit based mono amps are outstanding.

[GUTB]

1 minute ago, afgverhart said:

Well, it’s not a fact at all in my setup. The Hypex NC400 kit based mono amps are outstanding.

 

Your amps sound dry, over-damped (depending on speakers) with collapsed soundstage. I can judge your amps without having heard them because that’s what class D sounds like.

[Ralf11]

Your posts are all wet, over-damped and over-generalized, lacking in quality or understanding of even basic physics, and with collapsed analysis and integrity. I can judge your posts without having to read them because that’s what GUTB posts are.

[wgscott]

5 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Class D sucking is a fact, not my opinion.

 

[wgscott]

5 hours ago, divebaum said:

 

I think I could have handled the DIY,  but Hattor seems to offer far better engineering skills and build quality for less money than I would have spent buying the NC400 module + kit direct from Hypex, which is sold out at the moment any way. 

 

Which is why I'm wondering how the NC500mp module matches up against the NC400 one used in the DIY kit. My speakers are Dynaudio Focus 160s (86db at 4ohm), so the extra power from the 500mp will be welcome. I just don't have a sense for the difference between the different Hypex modules and couldn't glean much from the Hypex website. 

 

Based on a quick reading, I think the one that sells for $3K/pair of monoblocks is approximately equivalent to the NC400 kit.  The one that sells for $600 per monoblock presumably has a more basic power supply, but I am guessing here.  Whether it sounds any worse is another question.  You might have found the deal of a lifetime.

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

 

 

There’s a lot of people who want to believe Class D is good for financial reasons. A lot of them have bought into the electrostatic promise and don’t want to spend money on quality amplification so they convince themselves that class D is good. They believe they’re being "smart", they’re "winning" against the industry. Every once in a while someone might dare to inform the Internet that class D sucks.

[Ralf11]

the problem with class D is good ones are spendy

[firedog]

16 hours ago, divebaum said:

Which is why I'm wondering how the NC500mp module matches up against the NC400 one used in the DIY kit. My speakers are Dynaudio Focus 160s (86db at 4ohm), so the extra power from the 500mp will be welcome. I just don't have a sense for the difference between the different Hypex modules and couldn't glean much from the Hypex website. 

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/

They make and sell amps based on all the modules and also on the new ICE modules. Call or write them and I'm sure they can give you an idea. From the site:

"The NCore MP modules have an on board PSU and twin channels providing 85-90% of the sound quality of the NC500 in a compact footprint. They easily outperform older UcD amplifiers. They retain all the bass control, dynamics and most of sound stage and resolution of our NC500 amplifiers out performing most commercial amplifiers found on the high street costing 3-4 times more."

[firedog]

8 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

the problem with class D is good ones are spendy

 

What's "good"? You can get a prebuilt ICE or Hypex amp for $1000-$2000 that will outperform Class A or a/b amps at well above the price of the given Class D model.

[GUTB]

A high quality class D will only out-perform very bad class A and A/B amps. Any decently designed will beat class D. 

 

The performamce comparison with modern high-quality class D with better topologies isn't a linear mapping across the board. In terms of control and noise floor nothing can beat good class D. The inherent flaw of class D is the use of an aggressive output filter that ruins the sound. Through tricks and technical wizardry that's over my head modern class D can eliviate some of its issues but these are improvements and not a resolution.

[firedog]

46 minutes ago, GUTB said:

A high quality class D will only out-perform very bad class A and A/B amps. Any decently designed will beat class D. 

 

The performamce comparison with modern high-quality class D with better topologies isn't a linear mapping across the board. In terms of control and noise floor nothing can beat good class D. The inherent flaw of class D is the use of an aggressive output filter that ruins the sound. Through tricks and technical wizardry that's over my head modern class D can eliviate some of its issues but these are improvements and not a resolution.

Just read multiple user and pro reviews over the last 2-3 years of Hypex and ICE amps where they in no way agree with you, saying the amps sound as good or better than any amp near their price. It's fine if you don't like them, your broad generalizations simply have no basis in fact. 

[divebaum]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/

They make and sell amps based on all the modules and also on the new ICE modules. Call or write them and I'm sure they can give you an idea. From the site:

"The NCore MP modules have an on board PSU and twin channels providing 85-90% of the sound quality of the NC500 in a compact footprint. They easily outperform older UcD amplifiers. They retain all the bass control, dynamics and most of sound stage and resolution of our NC500 amplifiers out performing most commercial amplifiers found on the high street costing 3-4 times more."

 

Thanks very much for this, Firedog. I've read a bit about the Nord models, and the confirmation of "onboard PSU" vs user-selectable seems to be the big difference between NC500 and NC500mp. I hadn't seen that wording anywhere else so clearly. 

 

Also, from what I can tell, Nord stereo amps use the 502mp module, which is in fact twin channel, while the nc500mp modules in my new amps are single channel. That's the only difference between the 502mp and 500mp on the Hypex website. 

 

So, the difference between the NC500mp monoblocks and the Hattor "ultimate power amps"  seems to boil down to the external vs internal PSU on nc500mp vs NC500 and the upgraded input buffer. 

 

My use-case here is perhaps a little different from some. I was looking for a lot of power in a cool-running design that I could tuck away in a cabinet ( to keep away from prying little hands ). So, Class D ticks a lot of boxes for me. I was originally looking used amps featuring ICEpower, but the recent reviews for NCore seem to suggest that NCore made significant advancements that justify buying new. As I said, my first inclination was DIY, but they're sold out at the moment, and, my interactions with Arek + his obvious strengths in engineering and casework gave me enough confidence to commission a pair of monos. 

 

Thanks also to @m5sime for starting this thread.

 

 

[Ralf11]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

 

What's "good"? You can get a prebuilt ICE or Hypex amp for $1000-$2000 that will outperform Class A or a/b amps at well above the price of the given Class D model.

 

will they out perfrom my old Sunfire amp?

 

how about the Benchmark AH2B?

 

also, where is high street and what amps do they sell there?

[Milt99]

ATI also makes NCore based amps with a linear as opposed to switching power supply & custom designed input buffers.

Anyone who knows of Morris Kessler knows that he is one of the premier amp designers.

ATI does a lot of OEM work like Mark Levinson, Theta, etc.

7 year transferable warranty.

I have no doubt that if NCore was in some way fundamentally flawed, Mr. Kessler wouldn't bother

wasting company resources on a crap amplifier topology.

Some people like them some don't. Just like any other amp topology.

To the person wondering about the difference between 400 and 500 modules, and the power supplies.

You already may be aware, but only the 400 NCore and the lower end PS, not the 1200, are available to DIY'ers.

The 500 & 1200 are only available to OEMs like Hattor etal.

 

I'm looking at adding a pair of NCores to bi-amp the lower freqs on my speakers.

NCores and ICE amps are perfect for this application as well as subs.

Waiting for the Hypex NCore-based subwoofer plate amps as well.

Just my two cents.

[m5sime]

I have heard multiple systems at hifi shows that leverage the Hypex technology and modules. All sounded great. I have just bought some nc500 based monoblocks from Apollon Audio - such a delightful guy to work with and get advice from. I planned to buy from Arek and his implementation of the same technology in his very nicely engineered monoblocks. (Hattor audio). But, things didn’t work out. 

 

I believe HiFI class D is here to stay and Bruno Putzey has made it all possible (with others as well).

[divebaum]

Yep, I looked at Apollon, too. They look very nice. Enjoy!

My plan is to let Bruno's tech do its thing, taking full advantage of the control and noise floor that even GUTB can't deny  and then add flavor via a tube-based Freya balanced preamp. Tubes + tons of SS power always seemed like a good way to drive my Dyns. 

 

 

[botrytis]

GUTB really has no clue. I mean some of the Class D amps I have heard are amazing. Ever hear an Audio Research DS-225? Amazing sounding amp for the price.

 

He was complaining about the MQA threads and the attitudes there and he brings a worse attitude to this thread.

[cjf]

I've owned several flavors of Hypex and still own/use the DIY NC400's that I built a few years back. They are serving me well for my office and bedroom based systems.

 

I had a good old time building these amps. It was a fun and educational project. Below is the wiring/board/chassis layout I ended up using. Works great!

 

Edit...Forgot to mention that I believe the reason you see longer cabling runs on many of these Amp setups within the chassis is because of the default wiring harness length included with the DIY modules. In reality, I didn't find them too long and actually wished they were even slightly longer. It took some doing to both maintain a good distance between components to avoid noise potential and also work within the length of the harness provided.