Just got a Yggdrasil!

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1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

HP gear is how I discovered Schiit in the first place.  But I've kind of moved on now.  I have a Lyr 2, and really like it, but I've recently been using Lake People/Violectric gear and find it superior.  I'm not a huge fan of tubes.  I prefer linearity.

 

I am currently using a Schiit saga (mostly to roll tubes and see what happens), but also have moved on from them in the HP space as well.  

 

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17 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Case in point!

 

Lol! Is this thread even real. 

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59 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

I guess this place allows a random member get away with saying a forum sponsor is both inept and dishonest when neither is true.

 

Of course it "allows" this - what is the alternative truth finding mechanism?  Our adversarial legal process is in fact beholden to those with the deepest pockets like "forum sponsor's" and the like.  Do you propose a scientific truth standard instead?  Well, that requires the back and forth of examinations, some being right and some wrong, etc.

 

edit:  besides, what has mani said that was "untrue" - that the Yggy does not measure well?  That it sounds like a blender?  All true as far as I can tell, not that I have ever heard the damn thing.  Frankly, after this "spirited" defense of it I don't want to ever hear it.  In fact, my official position is that the Yggy sucks - and you can bet your last dollar that I am going to repeat this...many times...on the INTERNET!!!

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1 minute ago, jhwalker said:

 

Sure - makes sense since you've never heard it.  Wow.

 

Why would I need to hear it?  Only those who slap their mother, kick their dog, and spit on nuns would listen to the Yggy...

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1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Can you point to something that is patently false?

 

I heard that the Yggy was forged in a Nazi laboratory.  The year was 1944, the war was not going well, and Napoleon was approaching Moscow.  With Rome about to fall, the Yggy was conceived as a way to divide the enemy.  Something about this does not add up and just has to be false...

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27 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I assume JA has a basis for believing Schiit told him a falsehood. 

 

There was also the Asgard power off power glitch that was reported on publically and which Schiit lied about several times before fixing the issue. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/banned-at-head-fi.html

 

Interesting, I assume that this is the same nwavguy of Objective DAC fame?  In Schiit's defense, such a damning occurrence is more likely to be the result from some last minute (and untested) design change that had unforeseen consequences, or from ordering a batch of widgets with this or that specification but the (most likely Asian) supplier delivering widgets with a different specification (but stamped with what you ordered, of course) than anything intentional by Jason.  nwavguy is probably wrong in his speculation that Schiit simply did not bother to do minimal measurements...probably...

 

That said, it is incumbent upon companies (big and small) to "not be evil" and listen to their customers.  Either that, or suffer from the fallout.

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I admit that at least this moment in time, I am not all that interested in purchasing a R2R Dac in that I am currently hooked on up-sampling PCM to DSD through HQPlayer (at least 50% of my listening is done this way).  However, I am still interested in the relationship between R2R tech/design and the measurements.  Do we have other R2R designs measured by JA?  I saw a TotalDac review online but with no measurements...

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5 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Italian ones. Specifically, pre-Fiat Alfa Romeos. 

 

That top one reminds me of the GTV my dad had in the late 1970's. He would take me to the SCCA autocross (timed through cones) events so I could watch him run it up through second gear...

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

There is no substitute for an old Pooschey.

 

 

 

 

Oh I don't know.  They have that rear engine weight bias crossover glitch (as in "why am I going backwards through this curve right now?").  Also, that resistor air cooling design simply does not measure nearly as well as modern single bit water cooling.  There is only so much you can do with what is essentially a VW bug with a bit more power. I am going to go with JA and say they are "obsolete"...

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1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

 

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5 hours ago, SoundSparks said:

Dear Audiophiles!

 

As many of you, I am sure, I come to this forum to learn more about our wonderful hobby, voice and hear a very wide spectrum of uncensored (thank you very much for that, Chris!) opinions.

Many agree Yggy is a very good, "truthful" DAC, but some find it 

and am wondering if a comprehensive set of measurements can demonstrate conclusively if this is indeed a flawlessly designed high fidelity DAC.

Mani was kind enough to provide some interesting, by no means exhaustive, data for such analysis, and I am very much curious to learn if anybody is willing to take most generous offer Chris made to have a Yggy measured by a third party and what the results of this research are.

 

Who would do an independant measurements of a DAC and how much would the charge?

 

Start a web fund campaign - I will donate a bit of mullah just to see the Schiity results...

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6 hours ago, semente said:

 

Maybe I should clarify that I find listening to be the ultimate arbiter; but experience has led me to believe that technical performance matters and most of the time the better performers also sound better to me.

 

There was a time when I "shortlisted" based in professional reviews; later I started searching and quizzing web-forums for opinions.

I no longer do that because the large majority of reviews tells you little about performance but instead describes how the reviewers responds to an equipment's sound according to his personal taste.

And since I can't get inside his head, such type of review is worthless to anyone but the reviewer.

The fact that many people like a certain product doesn't mean that it's performance (the accurate reproduction of the recorded signal) is good.

We all have our different requirements and expectations for our system and our favourite musical genres also play a part in defining the sound of our system.

This is why I prefer to "shortlist" based on measurements.

Measurements also sometimes help me identify possible causes for shortcomings, and it is this recognizing of shortcomings that will lead to real, effective upgrades.

 

R

 

semente,

 

I am intrigued by you "shortlisting based on measurements".   Do you do the same with tube gear (if you use any tube gear), cables, software (such as DSP products or even players), etc. and if so how?

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29 minutes ago, semente said:

you've probably heard that some wide-band amplifiers and even speakers can be affected by aggressive noise shaping (e.g. the designer of my amplifier has advised me not to use HQ Player's NS9).

 

R

 

This is because the quantization noise is being pushed way up higher than the audible band (i.e. noise shaped), but a the wide band amp is working hard to amplify that signal right?  Which reminds me to ask what is the point of a wide band amplifier?  Anyone know the theory that argues for their advantage(s) or point me to a link?

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39 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

 

2 hours ago, semente said:

 

Maybe this: http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Amplifiers/amplifiers14.php

 

39 minutes ago, esldude said:

Depends on what you are calling wide band.  Conventional transistor amps will have a first order, 6db per octave roll off.  That means you have to be -3db down at 200 khz to manage being only .1 db down at 20 khz.  So most good solid state amps should have response to 150khz or 200 khz.  You might wonder about filtering, and that could be done.  However once you get more than a first order rolloff you have the chance of resonance and more so using feedback could become problematic.  It also is problematic in class D amps as the output filter necessary for those interacts with the loudspeaker load.

 

Now Demian Martin who used to post here and sometimes still does designed the Spectral amps early on.  He said they worked very hard to get an amplifier that let go of a signal or transient very quickly.  That it was an unappreciated difference you could hear. The near megahertz wide bandwidth according to him was a side effect of getting an amp that let go as quickly as it ramped up on a transient, and not a design goal.  Apologies if I am misrepresenting that, but that is it according to my memory.

 

Thanks guys.  The link semente posted proposes the harmonic argument (i.e. ultrasonic harmonics effect audioble band because they affect the "shape" of the sound).  However, since learning about how the vast majority of recordings are done with microphones that do not capture anything above 20hz, and even the ones that do only seem to go up to 25hz or so - that begs the question of not only ultra wide band amps but digital formats above 48 or so sample rate.

 

However, what Demian Martin is talking about (is it really anything more than slew rate?? - perhaps measured at the particular transistor level??) is bandwidth as a side effect of another design/sound goal...

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Can anyone speak (or perhaps have a link) about what how low level but "dirac" like spikes in the signal from the DAC effect the output signal/wave of typical amps?  It occurs to me that this sort of distortion could have outsized effects on an amplifier...which would lead to the inaudible being audible

 

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1 minute ago, LarryMagoo said:

The thing is Mani has nothing positive to contribute PERIOD. 

 

Odd, besides MQA I don't recall a subject attracting as much meaningless noise (such as the post above) as the Yggy.  Perhaps it is something about Schiit as well?  Obviously Mani is a big boy and will continue to make his excellent contributions to the subject.

 

In any case it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that those who would listen to a Yggy are homeless crackheads who find them in the gutter and don't know what else to do with them...

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

If anyone wonders what all this glitching is about and what are some techniques for helping to make it go away, here are a couple of blog posts from TI's web site:

 

https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/analogwire/archive/2013/06/14/what-s-with-all-this-glitch-ing

 

https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/analogwire/archive/2013/07/01/dac-essentials-glitch-be-gone

 

 

 

Thanks for the link.  The question in my mind currently in relation to the glitching measured in the Yggy, is rather it is significant.  The above links seem to discuss this transistor behavior (which all transistors exhibit) in nanovolts, but the Yggy's glitching is measured at 45 microvolts.  Is this enough to affect the perceived sound quality during a typical passage of music?  How often during one second of typical music does this zero crossing occur, and what are the accumulative effects - in particular what does it do to a typical audio amp which has to try to track this signal?

 

As we all know not all distortion is the same - but I am wondering with mani what this particular type of distortion "sounds like".  I appreciate PeterSt that it is essentially "harmless", but then he goes on to say that he/we really don't know if I am reading him correctly.

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30 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Since no transistor is perfect, all exhibit some overshoot.  In DACs this glitching/overshoot can be associated with a value transitioning from less significant bits to more significant bits, as Yuri (audiventory) mentioned above.

 

True, and some are arguing that while this behavior in the Yggy which is stronger than in most other's DACs (for all the reasons discussed) is still well below the threshold of audibility.  However, behind this is a couple of assumptions it seems to me: 1) that the low level of the glitch in isolation does not have aggregate effects.  It is just a butterfly flapping its wings and you can't feel it - but how many butterfly flaps occur during a typical passage of music (say in one second - just a few?  several thousands?  more?)  and what is the accumulative effect if any?  2)  That such dirac like spikes (infinite like and at a right angle to the sine wave) effect an amp the same as any other distortion.  I am wondering if this particular type of distortion has an outsized effect on the amplified signal.

 

Just thoughts...

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17 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

Please totally ignore the NOS1a file I just posted - that's for Peter to do with what he pleases. No one else needs this file because it's FR is very far removed from the original file. So that eliminates the NOS1a from the discussion.

 

 

Good enough to tell whether what I'm hearing in the Yggy capture is really down to the Yggy. Let me share my findings:

 

1. Yggy capture vs. original file:

- less dynamic

- opening cymbals sound really grating to me, like nails on a blackboard

- overall weird holographic sound

- bass has a metallic ring

- piano sounds hollow

- general HF junk filling background

 

2. Control DAC capture vs. original file:

- less dynamic

- grey sound

- just generally boring

- none of the other qualities I'm hearing in 1

 

So, I can conclude that the grating opening cymbals, the overall weird holographic sound, the metallic bass, the hollow piano and the HF junk in background in the Yggy capture must have come from the Yggy itself and nothing else

 

Is this a valid conclusion? Happy to be shown otherwise.

 

Mani.

 

 

Well just now gave a serious listen to both files (-6db on original) focusing on the first 20 seconds of each file.  I am only willing to say that I hear a very very slight "distance" in the Yggy file - like the DAC is just a bit (tiny bit) flatter giving me a bit less warmth, fullness-of-tonality (tiny bit) and naturalness.  My first guess would be that it is not anything beyond the extra conversion through the ADC that the original file has not suffered.  If you played these two files for me and asked me what the difference was, I might conclude that the Yggy file is the 16/44 and the original is the hi res (of the identical well recorded performance).

 

In other words, I simply can not hear any "nails on blackboard", etc.  I would also suggest that the significant differences you are hearing are based in your memory of your original experience, or something (no offense intended), but count me in with those who can not hear significant differences...

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23 hours ago, GUTB said:

Listened to Yggdrasil in the Schiit room at AXPONA. Vidar and Freya setup playing on a Song3 tower speakers. Very resolving, up there with the better DACs at the show -- W4S DAC2v2SE, Optologic, etc. The Schiit setup was a little thin on harmonics and shallow soundstage.

 

Did they have the Song3's right up against (the front) wall?  

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1 hour ago, semente said:

 

It's possible. I also have a bit of trouble hearing soundstage in live performances (of classical music) with my eyes closed.

 

R

 

Ha, know what you mean.  I have more than a few classical recordings that have a much larger "soundstage" than I ever hear at a live perfomance.  However, I am not a front row kind of guy, so maybe you have to be right up their more.

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5 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

saying it was not music was overboard

 

 

 

 

Well, ok.  How about "it is yet more evidence of the collapse of western civilization".  Is that going to far?

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5 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Did you say Trump?

 

No because Trump is a symptom.  I said evidence...