A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[the_doc735]

Having been monitoring this thread for quite some time now and noticed the recent decline in NUC related posts, I'm wondering if the dust has finally started to settle a little?

 

I have searched this thread for: NUC/ENDPOINT/MEMORY and one or two other search combinations, but am unable to find a satisfactory answer, so I've decided to post up instead.

 

What are the most suitable NUC endpoints at the current time?

Whether to fit SSD/HDD, or non at all?

The optimum amount of memory (ram)?

Can optane be used with the NUC and what difference does it make?

Is the endpoint NUC more important than the server end?

 

I'm wanting to run AL from memory (boot from memory with a USB memory stick) F.Y.I.

If it turns out to be amazing I would even consider a fanless case as well.

 

I suspect a lot of people have searched for this cumulative & succinct answer (i.e. bring all of these pages down into one reply covering the most fundamental questions)? 

 

Many thanks in advance to you all!

[the_doc735]

14 hours ago, EnjoyTheMusicNow said:

A router change and instant improvement. I upgraded from a Netgear Nighthawk  x6 to an x10 so that I could run fiber without a converter direct from the router to my listening room (sotm switch takes fiber direct) I have not run the fiber but the difference in just changing the router was substantial. The chain is as follows:

 

x10 router in closet

sonic transporter connected to router in closet

 

the rest is all in the dedicated listening room:

sotm network switch special edition with master clock input

sotm sMS200 ultra Neo SE with master clock input

sotm txbultra SE with master clock input 

sotm master clock

dave dac

pass labs xa30.8 amp

focal Maestro speakers

cables are VOVOX textura

power conditioner is Niagara 5000

isolation is silent running Audio platforms

 

i will update once the fiber is in place but the router change was big.

 

....could you possibly advise 'here': 

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

13 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

Hey Guys,

 

Regarding the powerful NUC7DNBE that is being used with better results, i see there are 3 different choices with the CORE i7-8650U, almost identical but with some differences.

 

NUC7i7DNKE, NUC7i7DNHE & NUC7i7DNBE

 

Question, would any of these choices would do the same task for our audio purpose?

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/nuc-kit-nuc7i7dnke-nuc7i7dnhe-board-nuc7i7dnbe-brief.html

 

...is this for a server? (or endpoint)

[the_doc735]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

3.15A is at the input 120V AC end of the transformer. It’s way more power (VA) than 6A DC at the rail voltages.

 

Make sense?

"NO!" ??? sorry for being dense! (LOL)

[the_doc735]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 That's why it is best to avoid using SSDs powered from the motherboard. It's far better to power internal SSDs from an additional low noise +5V voltage regulator using the +12V rail for it's input, for improved isolation from each other and other sensitive areas via the power supply. Internal SSDs are then able to readily outperform HDDs for SQ..

 I use a dual Low noise Voltage regulator PCB with 2 separate +5V outputs via John Linsley Hood designed <4uV noise PSU add-ons.

 Unfortunately, this is DIY.

 

My Syn. DS218+ NAS has one SSD for O/S and a second SSD for music storage each has a SOtM sata filter. The NAS has a SOtM fan filter and an ultra quiet Noctura fan (with speed resistor) + LPSU. This is running the syn. DSM 6.2.1. O/S and roon server. This is connected to a Son. microrendu 1.4 via FMC isolation, all powered by LPSU's. The SSD's are powered by the NAS itself.

Do you (OR ANYONE) have any suggestions for minor to major upgrades for increased sound quality at an affordable price point?

[the_doc735]

2 hours ago, sgr said:

While I applaud the interest and information, I feel these threads get too long and disorganized as they continue. There needs to be a way to break it into categories or subtopics.  Not being critical as I don’t think there is a way to prevent this in the format we’ve invented. 

But it would be nice if each topic could be separated out under the broad umbrella then bridging, NUCs, etc 

+1

[the_doc735]

right; as far as music file storage is concerned (& playback) have I understood this correctly please?

 

The best solution is to use an external drive with independent LPSU? And the drive should be HDD, not SSD?

 

OR, is there an even better solution like loading playing music files into RAM?

 

many thanks in advance!

[the_doc735]

12 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 

 If you are using a quality, low noise and low output impedance LPSU, the SSD should be every bit as good, if not better than with an HDD.

 Don't forget too, that HDD are electro mechanical  (usually 5,400 or 7,200 RPM) devices which may lack the very high stability of an SSD, thus an SSD having the possibility of lower Jitter as well as (normally *)   no Acoustic noise.

 

I don't  think that others have mentioned this aspect before ?

 

 * The internal inductors in some earlier SSDs " chirped"

really! wow!

see this search: https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=ssd vs. hdd.......

throws up lots of contradictions in the SSD/HDD debate: esp. saying that SSD has far too much noise compared to HDD, and that SSD should never be used for file playback, too thin, too noisy, too artificial etc?

OR is it a case of try them all and see what you prefer personally?

 

Up to now my first built music PC, one box solution with a USB memory stick for file storage sounded the best, even though I have now tried 2 or 3 much more complicated solutions they are not any better than what I started out with originally! And I haven't even reached the clock/re-clock bit yet! And the NUC/AL/RAM playback route is pulling me in as well.

 

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

At the moment my files are stored on SSD internal to my Syn.DS218+ NAS. I was thinking of connecting a SSD or HDD externally via eSATA with a 5V lpsu in a caddy, going on what I have read in the SSD vs. HDD threads. That was my intention, Now I'm not so sure once again!

 

Cheers! 

[the_doc735]

20 hours ago, Dutch said:

To complicate things further; there’s many ways to connect up storage, beyond the two which are named here.

 

- SATA

- mSATA/m.2

- USB

- Thunderbolt

- firewire

- PCIe

- m2 PCIe

 

And of course there’s the different types of storage SSD (SLC/MLC/3d NAND, ...), 2,5/3,5” mechanical HDD’s, eMMC, SDC, USB thumb drives, optical, ...

 

I’m sure I forgot a boatload.

 

So good luck in comparing them all/finding consensus!

optane?

floppy disk (LOL)

[the_doc735]

....see this search: https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=ssd vs. hdd....... 

 

SSD - HDD   ...with one half in favour of ssd and the other in favour of HDD, does it really matter that much? Is it just a negligible thing (nit picking)?

internal/external drive  ...does it really matter?

vbus powered or external/independent power   ....does it really matter?

[the_doc735]

i have syn. ds218+ NAS/dedicated server, w/LPSU & SOtM filters. running DSM 6.2.1 and roon server.

I have Sonore microrendu 1.4 upgrade w/LPSU, running sonicorbiter O/S (linux) & roon.

 

Is there any ACTUALLY AVAILABLE NUC PC's to replace my server and endpoint player, that would be a significant upgrade in sound quality, to "the above".

 

Also,  does the microrendu load O/S to RAM, and can music files be loaded into RAM 100%?

 

Many thanks!

[the_doc735]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Please help me help you guys. 

remove misinformation please? that may help? as @sandyk suggested.

thank you for your consideration.

I won't say any more about it.

[the_doc735]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

Yes, being mechanical devices that have their motors normally powered from an existing +12V supply rail, (especially the large capacity types) they are then highly likely to have less precise timing, and will also inject their motor current demand variations back into the +12V supply as well. This +12V supply may also be shared with other devices such as another HDD or even an Optical device.

 

There is another fly in the ointment here too. Many people augment the internal PSU with external Linear power supplies which have capacitive coupling back through the transformer to A.C. mains earth. (This is more of a problem with USB though) 

The existing would be using the 0 volts lead back to the internal PSU 's " earth plane" via fairly short leads, perhaps via a couple of 4 pin molex connectors. When you add an external linear PSU you then increase the 0 volts ( earth reference) lead length from the new PSU via it's relatively long 0 volts lead back to perhaps an earth reference derived from a 3 pin plug via perhaps an up to 1.8M long AC cable, plugged into (hopefully) an adjacent socket on the same powerboard. You may also have another variable where the 0 volts lead of the new linear PSU can be either  " floating" or connected to mains earth. This may result in additional RF/EMI pick up from external sources

 

Use an added low noise  internal voltage regulator powered by +12V from the existing PSU, then the earth resistance may then be almost the same length back to the internal PSU's 0 volts plane, or just a few inches longer than previously.

 It's ALWAYS a good idea to keep the  0 volts earth references as short as possible, which is another reason why it's best not to " daisy chain" added LT3045 (etc.) voltage regulators. This applies to both Digital and Analogue areas.

 

Alex

I wish you was my personal adviser in my house man! Electronics doctor saviour! Fix me up Doc!

[the_doc735]

this is novel or weird ?

 

somehow the roon crashed?

I couldn't install albums on my NAS/SSD via a memory USB stick either.

I had played an album BEFORE this happened and it sounded rubbish!

I gave up and unplugged everything and rebooted and re-installed roon to the laptop controller.

I still couldn't get any albums on the NAS from it's USB input!

So, I gave up for a while.

I then plugged the USB memory stick into the laptop controller and loaded an album to roon via the USB memory stick.

The controller laptop is linked to my router/access point by WLAN/wireless.

This album played back from the router via the rest of the chain and it sounded great compared to the dedicated NAS/server!

Can anyone explain this conundrum please?

To compare:

an everyday domestic laptop with thousands of processes firing off all the time with a bog standard SMPS and noisy tiny fan; sounds better than a:

dedicated NAS with good quality SSD's & noctura top of range fan with speed resistor and SOtM fan filter + SOtM sata filters and LPSU: ..... how can the laptop sound better than the dedicated NAS?

 

this was ALL an accident, I didn't mean to do it!

 

This throws up obvious questions like; is my dedicated NAS server up to the job/ up to the task! Common sense says that the laptop shouldn't sound better than the dedicated/custom NAS which was built for the task in hand and only serves an audio purpose! Compared to an all purpose bog standard laptop!

 

Here's a pic of the chain:

 

[the_doc735]

7 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

First off, can you describe in more detail what you mean by sounding better ? And is it on all type of recordings/Hi Res/low Res/DSD etc?

More detail, more depth, more width, deeper bass, cleaner trebles, less noise and distortion, things like that I suppose. Yes all recordings. I only use PCM, flac, MP3 etc. No DSD.

MANY THANKS!

[the_doc735]

13 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

this is novel or weird ?

 

somehow the roon crashed?

I couldn't install albums on my NAS/SSD via a memory USB stick either.

I had played an album BEFORE this happened and it sounded rubbish!

I gave up and unplugged everything and rebooted and re-installed roon to the laptop controller.

I still couldn't get any albums on the NAS from it's USB input!

So, I gave up for a while.

I then plugged the USB memory stick into the laptop controller and loaded an album to roon via the USB memory stick.

The controller laptop is linked to my router/access point by WLAN/wireless.

This album played back from the router via the rest of the chain and it sounded great compared to the dedicated NAS/server!

Can anyone explain this conundrum please?

To compare:

an everyday domestic laptop with thousands of processes firing off all the time with a bog standard SMPS and noisy tiny fan; sounds better than a:

dedicated NAS with good quality SSD's & noctura top of range fan with speed resistor and SOtM fan filter + SOtM sata filters and LPSU: ..... how can the laptop sound better than the dedicated NAS?

 

this was ALL an accident, I didn't mean to do it!

 

This throws up obvious questions like; is my dedicated NAS server up to the job/ up to the task! Common sense says that the laptop shouldn't sound better than the dedicated/custom NAS which was built for the task in hand and only serves an audio purpose! Compared to an all purpose bog standard laptop!

 

Here's a pic of the chain:

AMENDED PICTURE:

Amended picture on earlier post....

 

[the_doc735]

In the spirit of experimentation in finding new and novel ways to achieve better sound quality:

 

....would this be better as a server than a synology ds218+, W/LPSU,...

 

MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini-ITX + Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. 

Intel Core i7 Coffee Lake 8700 SE Gen.8 2.9GHz LGA1151 TDP 35W CPU. 

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. 

Samsung (250GB) 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x1). 

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. 

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis. 

Seasonic Prime Ultra ’80+’ Titanium 650 Watt ATX M-PSU. 

 

Many thanks!