A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ElviaCaprice]

50 minutes ago, marce said:

I will bow out myself as I don't want to get in any bun fights.

One thing though, a couple of you are using the word empirical incorrectly, you don't want any science so realise that you have NO empirical data, it is subjective opinions only...

Have fun.

Proof enough that your intention here was to only discredit by diminutizing our own empirical observations.

[ElviaCaprice]

13 minutes ago, marce said:

Pathetic and childish...

Does your attitude move the audio hobby forward, no, 

proof of nothing, I could have put up a one line reply and achieved what you accuse me of, instead I spent more time than I have to spare carefully formulating my reply and hopefully adding to the collective understanding... And especially to avoid simple mistakes that will bugger up your super clocks, but ...

All you have done is pull people down and act like a bit of a bully... 

 

Then I apologize if you feel that way, that was never my intention.  We welcome any information that adds to the collective understanding.

[ElviaCaprice]

The fundamental premise of this thread has become the sCLK-EX and how it's clocking versatility and excellent SQ upgrades has changed the outlook for all audio components from servers to fixers. 

@CoolerI don't use Roon, but somehow it escaped me that it is incapable of working offline, which I always do with my audio server.  Another reason I would stick with JRiver on my sCLK-EX server.

If you want to remove SSD noise, go with 5V HDD encased and powered separately from outside the PC, in my case a NUC.  It's 5TB and partitioned to run the OS and audio DATA.

 

To be honest, ever since I've had the modified sCLK-EX NUC, I've noticed that hard drive noise and any optimizations have no noticeable effect on SQ.  An onboard SSD would probably be fine for the OS. 

[ElviaCaprice]

See above, my changes to the posting.  I currently am not using the SSD, because the HDD suffices for my need in speed, OS, and it's already in place.  No need to add an extra SSD to the mini port and require more power usage of the mobo.  Although I doubt I could hear a difference because of the sCLK-EX.

[ElviaCaprice]

3 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

Is this off topic from your perspective @ElviaCaprice, or did I misunderstood your hint (if last then sorry for that)

 

As others stated, you are fine.  My hint was in regards to another poster who seems to want to diminutize the importance of this thread and the sCLK-EX.

[ElviaCaprice]

17 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

is there anything we can look for in an "off the shelf" network player dac (one box) that would satisfy most of the sq (assuming jitter reduction is the main reason for all this "clock hoopla') this thread pertains to?  I don't want to send stuff off to be modded..

 

 

 

Fortunately there is not, unless you want to spend 4 to 5k for SOtM's sCLK-EX server, without a DAC.  I already outlined to you in detail how to go about this DIY at a much more reasonable cost, without the DAC.  There is a lot of information on picking a mobo in this thread.  If your really serious about it, you will want to read it all yourself.  Good luck!! 

 

Server=>DAC=>Speakers

[ElviaCaprice]

16 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

why fortunately not, and why not:

 

Network Player=>AMP=>Speakers

 

not denying, just curious why not?

If you have the source/dac in one box that seems to be a way to eliminate a lot of the design problems with clocking, jitter, etc....  and exasound suggested the concept is optimal

 

 

1.  Because I like the components separate, server and DAC for the ability to upgrade one or the other, let alone the power supplies.  I see no benefit in a single unit with these two functions.

2.  I do see a benefit in the DAC having pre and amp capabilities for direct connection to speakers.  Biggest being Chord DAC's that offer extremely low impedance output and extremely good resolution without a separate pre-amp or amp that would only reduce the resolution and increase the impedance.

 

So in light of that, I find my sCLK-EX server direct to Chord DAC direct to Speakers an ideal system "keeping it really simple".

[ElviaCaprice]

7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

i guess different strokes for different folks will always be true...

 

at the price of lps's....i want one ps for player and dac, common clock, no interconnects or need for usb toys, and i will always have a mcintosh amp,

 

 

You can buy a single LPS with more than one output.  My Paul Hynes SR7 has 4 outputs which will serve 3 separate components as of now.  The interconnect between the server and the DAC is a USPCB.  The USPCB is the most neutral non invasive USB connector available. 

Also I only need one set of speaker cables, no interconnects.

Yes, different strokes for different folks is about it. 

[ElviaCaprice]

16 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

So how much for the whole outfit, and anything you plan on changing now or in future or think you can improve on with reasonable cost....and when will it all be available without having to send off for mods....surely it is just a matter of time....when you got it all figured out, sell it to me (wink)

I priced out every single component, etc. in an older posting in this thread.  About 8K total.  I do plan on acquiring a master clock, but am in no rush to do so with so many new entrants about to enter the market.  I do not want to pay more than 2k for this, better closer to 1K.  I only need one output, so the Cybershaft is currently on top of my list and I would have already acquired it if it had the ability to accept a DC input.  Hint:  My fourth Paul Hynes output.

 

I do plan on upgrading the Chord DAC upon their new release, maybe, depends on it's features.

 

Otherwise I am extremely happy with my system today, it's performance is magical to say the least and I haven't even added the Paul Hynes power supply waiting for me in the States.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 minute ago, beerandmusic said:

is $8K just for the source or does that include amp and/or speakers (grin)....i guess i have a LONG wait.

That's everything, power supplies and speakers, DAC, server, cables.  I made my own cables.  Also my software is nearly nothing, just JRiver update every 2 years for $16.

[ElviaCaprice]

41 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

My suggestion is to hire space in a server park. Do everything on virtual computers. 

After all we’re talking about an Ethernet interface or ?

 

I have unlimited storage in the cloud for $99 a year. (Renting server capacity is more expensive). 

 

I would like to have one virtual Linux for HQPLAYER, and one for Roon, and probably one or two personal PC. (Still in cloud). 

 

You can easily access computers via RDT even on a iPad. 

 

Since this must look like these computers is part of your local network (until Roon accepts an external installation), You would need OpenVPN net 2 net or similar.  (I have used OpenVPN as a road warier together with ipCop, so this works well)

 

Spending money on good clocks, power, switces, AE (audio endpoints) seems like a good idea to me, but I’m not getting it on the computer side, unless you must be offline. Or lack speed. 

 

You may compare this way of thinking where the AE is a thin client. Exactly how many huge companies operate.

 

So what’s wrong with this approach, except, you can’t go offline, unless you have a synchronized copy of those virtual computers at home ?

 

Offline, my recurring cost is zero.

You can't control the source components from streaming online.  Best you can do is get data as stationary (without any electrical noise accompanied, isolated) in memory with proper media player and a sCLK-EX mobo to initiate the stream.   Which works either way offline or online (I prefer offline, easier to isolate).  How you store the data or from what source is irrelevant in my opinion (if isolated).  How much noise you create (electric) and quality of clocking from the streaming source onwards is extremely important.  Thus the server is extremely important at ground zero.  

 

So as to easily optimize the path from outside electrical interference, isolate, I prefer the shortest data (again prefer offline) to streaming path possible, also better for impedance.

[ElviaCaprice]

42 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@ElviaCaprice

What is the difference between streaming Tidal direct to a top of the line AE, vs adding computers in your home before the same AE ?

 

Assuming you have very good switches in both cases.

 

Also how will audio noise (whatever that is in this case) travel from a server park either if it’s your private or it owned by Jay-Z ?

Just to clarify, the sCLK-EX server is an AE also, semantics giving.  So now you are comparing different AE's, some without capable memory for data storage/streaming (to answer your first question). 

Streaming from an online media source such as Tidal has it's difficulties for best SQ regardless of AE, in my opinion.   I don't think you could ever equal offline source in SQ all things being equal.

 

If I new the technical answer to the clocking question, I would be advising John Swenson on the matter.  We just know that it works to reclock that streaming data with the sCLK-EX and isolate from noise.  If you read JS's latest on outside electrical noise introduction to data streaming, you could imagine that distance does matter.  Can you sufficiently reclock and isolate a data stream initiated online, no memory storage, to the same sound quality of one initiated from a modified server with memory?  We have not done this comparison enough to give a conclusive answer, many variables involved. 

 

All I can say is that it's a heck of a lot cheaper to do it, component/power supply wise from a server, let alone you still will need a server for any offline streaming.  Thus the versatility and cost of using the sCLK-EX server (AE) gives it the advantage, in my humble opinion.

[ElviaCaprice]

I think you would be far better off to add a JS shield with ground wire to your needed audio cables like Larry did.  Best eliminate as many cables as possible.  Use adapters like the USPCB.

[ElviaCaprice]

What is so expensive with DIY'ing a sCLK-EX server?  My NUC was only $100.  The sCLK-EX  is the expensive add on, but still less than the sms-200Ultra and the trifecta add on.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing the virtual PC thing at all. 

[ElviaCaprice]

With my sCLK-EX server, I have set as small of a buffer as possible with minimum latency in JRiver.  Never a drop out PCM or DSD (DOP) bit perfect.  I use the Chord ASIO driver for Windows 10.

 

Also, when I used the ISO Regen, I never had any problems either.  I just choose not to change the sound signature of the sCLK-EX server with any add on devices,  sounds best direct to the DAC via USPCB.

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Up Squared Board with Celeron N3350 looks quite interesting

 

http://www.up-board.org/upsquared/

 

$145 for 2GB of RAM and $169 for 4GB of RAM respectively

 

https://up-shop.org/up-boards/92-up-squared-celeron-duo-core-2gb-memory32gb-emmc.html

https://up-shop.org/up-boards/94-up-squared-celeron-duo-core-4gb-memory32gb-emmc.html

 

I could count 2 clocks on one side and 1 clock on the other

 

 

We could actually install two pieces of SOtM tX-USBexp thanks to one M.2 slot and one Mini PCIe slot, of course we'll need an adapter or a riser of some sort

 

http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/PE4C V3.0.html

http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/PE4C V4.1.html

 

That's pretty much the only reasonably priced option if we're going after something as small as 85.6 mm × 90 mm for the sake of very short clock cables, it's just somewhat tricky to figure out how to get both SOtM tX-USBexp cards positioned properly because of the constraints on space.

 

The specs claimed 5V @ 4A but we'll have to measure the actual power consumption in order to find out if LPS-1 were any good, of course some of us might consider sPS-500 / Paul Hynes / Vinnie Rossi MINI PURE-DC-4EVR etc. so that might not be such a big deal

 

http://www.up-board.org/upsquared/specifications-up2/

Very nice, they even make a chassis for it, all aluminum, easily modified for external PCIe card or cards.  Reasonable priced.  I like it.

 

https://up-shop.org/up-peripherals/142-up-squared-fanless-chassis-with-vesa-mounting-plate.html

 

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

While I don't own a tx-USBultra and have not heard one, but having read this thread since it's start, there hasn't been much discussion of the impact of the low noise power regulators surrounding the clocks and PLLs on this device. My hypothesis is that most of the gain is from power treatments surrounding the clock, and not the quality increase of the new clock itself vs. the old clock it replaced.

 

My expectation is that we will never know the truth about this. LOL!

I would agree, BUT, case in point, replacing the clock with the (sCLK-EX) on the already clean input of the tXUSBexp card makes a big difference over any previous clock by SOtM.  Others have replaced mobo system clocks on their motherboards before with clean power but not found these kinds of changes to the degree the sCLK-EX has given. 

 

I don't disagree that, clean power to the separated clocking board allows it not to be tainted by the component  being clocked, is a big factor, but I don't think this is the entire picture on the matter.

 

Then there is the case of the master clock input on the sCLK-EX being lifted to another degree of SQ quality from being supplied a master clock signal which again is above and beyond the clean power only theory.

[ElviaCaprice]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

I fear that this may indeed be the ultimate truth of the matter.....    

The only ones fearing are the ones not incorporating the sCLK-EX into their components streaming.  They fear what they are missing.  I for one, couldn't imagine not incorporating a sCLK-EX into my mobo build, it's just too huge of a game changer, that helps simplify the whole makeup of the necessary components needed for a complete high end setup, with fantastic SQ.  Really keeping it simple.  

Server=>DAC=>Speakers

[ElviaCaprice]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

Ugh! Can't we please just have a discussion about the mechanisms involved here without getting emotional? Thanks.

No emotion, here, Larry, just straight forward impressions from my own listening experience.  So where were you on the mechanisms involved???  Clean power is the only explanation?  Yet, you haven't even heard it yet, a sCLK-EX component?   Seems that in the spirit of this empirical thread it might be wiser to first have tried the component in question before looking for scientific answers.  Plenty of empirical evidence point to the sCLK-EX being what is said, here in this thread.  If you still question it's value, then I doubt any explanation scientifically is going to sway you to want to take action and go the sCLK-EX route yourself.

[ElviaCaprice]

8 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

As indicated in my original post, I am not yet prepared to drop $1k on a USB decrapifier.

 

 

I wouldn't disagree with this other than if your not going to do the sCLK-EX modification at the point of streaming origination (server), then your next best choice would be along it's path, thus a USB decrapifier, as you put it.

[ElviaCaprice]

5 minutes ago, mozes said:

If I had a time machine and can go back in time, I would have just bought a sCLK-EX board and utilized the 4 outputs inside my server rather than getting the tX-USBultra to benefit from a single clock output only!

 

And I don't even think you need 4 if you utilize the sCLK-EX from the point of origination, like a mobo/server.  2 is probably good enough.  Will be interesting to hear your impressions with the added tX-USBultra to the sCLK-EX server stream in and out.

[ElviaCaprice]

5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Do you know if the TX-USBultra needs vbus input like the ISO REGEN?

The TX-USBultra does not need the vbus input.

[ElviaCaprice]

12 minutes ago, zoltan said:

Why do you need these heat sinks? I don't have an LPS-1 (yet) but this is the first time I've heard of a heat sink on LPS-1s.

You don't need em.  Just audiophile overkill/dressing for looks.

[ElviaCaprice]

3 hours ago, zoltan said:

Well, outside heatsinks don't do much for the looks, to say the least. I guess you can achieve an operating temperature of the components themselves (not the chassis) a few degrees lower operation temperature (if at all) but that will result in no audible improvement. It may extend product lifetime from 15 years to 16 years. Even my rack is different since 16 years ago... 

Your not telling me anything I didn't know, I sure don't use them.   Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

[ElviaCaprice]

1 hour ago, afrancois said:

I didn’t know I had earned my audiophile bragging rights with some heatsinks in the garage. Now that I know, I’ll make sure to scream it from the roof next time I visit an audio show :-)

Some would consider it so.  Not I.  If I don't need them here on the west coast of Costa Rica, doubt anybody needs them.