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Disapointed: Mravinsky Tchaikowsky Symphonies @24/96


mcgillroy
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Just downloaded Tchaikovsky Symphonies at 24/96 with Yevgeny Mravinsky conducting the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra via Qobuz. I had an 320 MP3 of an older CD and expected better sound from the new files.

 

After 2 seconds it was clear that this remastering suffered from increased compression. The quiet parts have been lifted substantially destroying the tension Mravinsky builds. The whole thing sounds blown up and out of proportion.

 

The MP3 has a DR-value of 11, the 24/96 file DR9.

 

Stay away from the 24/96 version and make sure you find the old CD-transfer. Much better music.

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I have both the original CDs and the remastered DG The Originals edition and tonal wise I prefer the latter.

I compared both files with Audioleak and the plots were quite similar.

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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High Definition Tape Transfers http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com has the Mravinsky Pathetique on DSD256 (and lesser formats), a direct transfer from 15ips 2 track tape. Says it is from the 1961 DGG recording.

 

Bob Witrak usually does an excellent job in his DSD256 transfers, using Pyramix and Hapi from Merging Technologies. HDTT currently has a 30% off sale until the 28th (tomorrow). Price is $18.20 on sale for the DSD256 version, less for lesser formats, down to about $6 for a plain CD.

 

Larry

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I have both the original CDs and the remastered DG The Originals edition and tonal wise I prefer the latter.

I compared both files with Audioleak and the plots were quite similar.

 

R

 

Thx - not sure if the 24/96 version is the same master as with the Original edition. The cover says so but one never knows if the label sells different masters for different formats.

 

To my ears the 24/96 version is a hack-job and destroys much of the tension, my partner and I tried to give it a chance but we couldn't stand it.

 

In any case I just ripped a version of the 6. from an DG Classicon CD released in 94. This too has DR11 and sounds almost identical to the MP3 I had. We much prefer this version.

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High Definition Tape Transfers www.highdeftapetransfers.com has the Mravinsky Pathetique on DSD256 (and lesser formats), a direct transfer from 15ips 2 track tape. Says it is from the 1961 DGG recording.

 

Bob Witrak usually does an excellent job in his DSD256 transfers, using Pyramix and Hapi from Merging Technologies. HDTT currently has a 30% off sale until the 28th (tomorrow). Price is $18.20 on sale for the DSD256 version, less for lesser formats, down to about $6 for a plain CD.

 

Larry

 

Thx - I don't have a DSD capable DAC. Any chance to convert this to FLAC/ALAC on a Mac? If so I'd be willing to take the risk with these transfers.

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Thx - I don't have a DSD capable DAC. Any chance to convert this to FLAC/ALAC on a Mac? If so I'd be willing to take the risk with these transfers.

 

HDTT also has the file in PCM 24/192 flac, and 24/96 flac for 11.90 or 10.50. Sale ends today. Good luck. Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

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I didn't hear 24/96 transfers of Mravinsky early sixties performances. But comparing CD transfers of these with earlier mid-50 mono DG editions from the same conductor and orchestra I should admit my preference is with earlier DG recordings. Latest recordings are more refined and polished, and, probably, better adapted for European ears, while earlier recordings convey quite different message, which most probably would not be approved by Tchaikovsky himself. But, one must hear this ugly, raw playing from musicians who survived terrible wartime Leningrad famine and outlived their close relatives who perished in Gulag only yesterday.

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I didn't hear 24/96 transfers of Mravinsky early sixties performances. But comparing CD transfers of these with earlier mid-50 mono DG editions from the same conductor and orchestra I should admit my preference is with earlier DG recordings. Latest recordings are more refined and polished, and, probably, better adapted for European ears, while earlier recordings convey quite different message, which most probably would not be approved by Tchaikovsky himself. But, one must hear this ugly, raw playing from musicians who survived terrible wartime Leningrad famine and outlived their close relatives who perished in Gulag only yesterday.

 

Thanks for your insight. We in the US didn't begin to suffer the ravages of WWII that others in Europe and Asia went through.

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

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HDTT also has the file in PCM 24/192 flac, and 24/96 flac for 11.90 or 10.50. Sale ends today. Good luck. Larry

 

Thx - can you give me more info on this site? Where do the tapes come from? Are these the DG/BBC mastertapes or some other material? The website is conspicuously light on information.

 

Not willing to spend money on some files of unclear origin and quality.

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Thx - can you give me more info on this site? Where do the tapes come from? Are these the DG/BBC mastertapes or some other material? The website is conspicuously light on information.

 

Not willing to spend money on some files of unclear origin and quality.

 

Don't know - I'll ask Bob Witrak, the owner. He has been doing these digital dubs for quite a few years, starting with 4 track commercial R2R tapes which are out of copyright. Lately he has been using quite a few 15ips 2 track, which, to my knowledge, were never commercially released. I'll check to see what the provenance was. I have purchased most of his classical releases of the 15ips 2 track tapes, and they have been quite fine at DSD256.

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

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Thanks for your insight. We in the US didn't begin to suffer the ravages of WWII that others in Europe and Asia went through.

 

Larry

It is our choice to take non-musical factors into consideration when we are approaching different recordings or not to take. In many cases I'd prefer not to think about such things, however I just couldn't ignore the cultural and political environment of Mravinsky's epoch.
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Don't know - I'll ask Bob Witrak, the owner. He has been doing these digital dubs for quite a few years, starting with 4 track commercial R2R tapes which are out of copyright. Lately he has been using quite a few 15ips 2 track, which, to my knowledge, were never commercially released. I'll check to see what the provenance was. I have purchased most of his classical releases of the 15ips 2 track tapes, and they have been quite fine at DSD256.

 

Larry

 

Thx. So basically this is an audiophile gear-head who made his hobby a business but who doesn't have access to the original master tapes.

 

He just digitizes Reel-to-Reel tapes that used to be commercially available as alternatives to vinyl. Judging from his website his equipment is top-notch though and he seems to know what he is doing.

 

Most likely his Mravinsky is sourced from a 1/4" 15ips tape. That certainly is better than vinyl but still far inferior to the mastering tapes. Technically 12-13 bits would suffice for the dynamic range of this material. There might be some high-end beyond 22k on there too, but also a lot of noise.

 

Anyhow - with the sale going I forked over €8.- for a 24/96 file of the Mravinsky.

 

Dynamic range is similar to the older DG CD-transfer and generally it sounds good. No hiss or other artifacts, nice black background and good separation.

 

CD version still sounds slightly better to my ears.

 

Not sure if I'd recommend this site. As a second source for priced recordings it's OK but I wish they would be more upfront with what they actually are doing and where the material in each instance is coming from.

 

All in all it makes more sense to push the holders of the original master tapes to do a better job with their re-masterings. Will write DG about my experience.

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Thx. So basically this is an audiophile gear-head who made his hobby a business but who doesn't have access to the original master tapes.

 

He just digitizes Reel-to-Reel tapes that used to be commercially available as alternatives to vinyl. Judging from his website his equipment is top-notch though and he seems to know what he is doing.

 

Most likely his Mravinsky is sourced from a 1/4" 15ips tape. That certainly is better than vinyl but still far inferior to the mastering tapes. Technically 12-13 bits would suffice for the dynamic range of this material. There might be some high-end beyond 22k on there too, but also a lot of noise.

 

Anyhow - with the sale going I forked over €8.- for a 24/96 file of the Mravinsky.

 

Dynamic range is similar to the older DG CD-transfer and generally it sounds good. No hiss or other artifacts, nice black background and good separation.

 

CD version still sounds slightly better to my ears.

 

Not sure if I'd recommend this site. As a second source for priced recordings it's OK but I wish they would be more upfront with what they actually are doing and where the material in each instance is coming from.

 

All in all it makes more sense to push the holders of the original master tapes to do a better job with their re-masterings. Will write DG about my experience.

 

Bob has been on the cutting edge of using new hirez formats, particular now with quite a few DSD256 releases, while the majors, and even all but a handful of minors have not touched DSD. Even folks like Channel Classics are only releasing DSD64 for the vast majority of their releases (which I buy in multichannel). I also buy NativeDSD which does have some higher rez DSD.

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

Other-2x512EngineerMarutaniSymmetrical Power+Cables Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1.7KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50TBripped files

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  • 2 weeks later...
High Definition Tape Transfers http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com has the Mravinsky Pathetique on DSD256 (and lesser formats), a direct transfer from 15ips 2 track tape. Says it is from the 1961 DGG recording.

 

Bob Witrak usually does an excellent job in his DSD256 transfers, using Pyramix and Hapi from Merging Technologies. HDTT currently has a 30% off sale until the 28th (tomorrow). Price is $18.20 on sale for the DSD256 version, less for lesser formats, down to about $6 for a plain CD.

 

Larry

 

The transfers are probably excellent, but the source material is second rate. Commercially released open reel tapes. Not the master tapes.

 

Concerning compression, here are the DR values of my rips of the SHM-SACDs (2012 DSD master made at the Emil Berliner Studios from the original analog master of Deutsche Grammophon)

 

-----------------------------

 

foobar2000 1.3.12 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2016-09-24 23:33:46

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: EVGENY MRAVINSKY / LENINGRAD PHILHARMONIC / TCHAIKOVSKY: SYMPHONY NO.4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -7.02 dB -20.94 dB 18:51 01-1. ANDANTE SOSTENUTO [sYMPHONY NO.4]

DR11 -8.11 dB -25.79 dB 9:19 02-2. ANDANTINO IN MODO DI CANZONA [sYMPHONY NO.4]

DR13 -8.38 dB -28.43 dB 5:50 03-3. SCHERZO [sYMPHONY NO.4]

DR10 -3.78 dB -20.18 dB 7:56 04-4. FINALE [sYMPHONY NO.4]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 4

Official DR value: DR11

 

Samplerate: 2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 88200 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 1

Bitrate: 5645 kbps

Codec: DSD64

 

----------------------------------------------

 

foobar2000 1.3.12 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2016-09-24 23:19:24

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: EVGENY MRAVINSKY / LENINGRAD PHILHARMONIC / TCHAIKOVSKY: SYMPHONY NO.5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -6.87 dB -22.22 dB 14:33 01-1. ANDANTE - ALLEGRO CON ANIMA [sYMPHONY NO.5]

DR9 -6.37 dB -21.92 dB 11:56 02-2. ANDANTE CANTABILE, CON ALCUNA LICENZA [sYMPHONY NO.5]

DR11 -7.43 dB -26.07 dB 5:27 03-3. VALSE [sYMPHONY NO.5]

DR8 -6.37 dB -19.19 dB 11:03 04-4. FINALE [sYMPHONY NO.5]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 4

Official DR value: DR9

 

Samplerate: 2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 88200 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 1

Bitrate: 5645 kbps

Codec: DSD64

 

------------------------------------------------

 

foobar2000 1.3.12 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2016-09-24 23:07:25

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: EVGENY MRAVINSKY / LENINGRAD PHILHARMONIC / TCHAIKOVSKY: SYMPHONY NO.6 "PATHETIQUE"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -7.61 dB -23.06 dB 17:39 01-1. ADAGIO - ALLEGRO NON TROPPO [sYMPHONY NO.6]

DR12 -9.15 dB -26.16 dB 8:08 02-2. ALLGRO CON GRAZIA [sYMPHONY NO.6]

DR9 -6.18 dB -20.34 dB 8:21 03-3. ALLGRO MOLTO VIVACE [sYMPHONY NO.6]

DR9 -7.31 dB -21.94 dB 9:50 04-4. FINALE [sYMPHONY NO.6]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 4

Official DR value: DR10

 

Samplerate: 2822400 Hz / PCM Samplerate: 88200 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 1

Bitrate: 5645 kbps

Codec: DSD64

 

https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=8109

https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=8110

https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=8095

Claude

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Hi Claude, thanks for the info. What I know is that Bob Witrak used 15ips 2 track tapes, not commercial 7.5ips 4 track stereo tapes for the Mravinsky Pathetique. He has used commercial tapes for other releases, but not for this one or most of the DSD256 rips that he has done. In many cases he has had access to master tapes (like Jonathan Horwich's releases, and Bob Sellman's DTR releases).

 

Larry

Analog-VPIClas3,3DArm,LyraSkala+MiyajimaZeromono,Herron VTPH2APhono,2AmpexATR-102+MerrillTridentMaster TapePreamp  Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicrosonicsModel2; Dig Play-Lampi Pacific, mch NADAC, Roon-HQPlayer,Oppo105  Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR

Other-2x512EngineerMarutaniSymmetrical Power+Cables Music-15KRecs(90%classical),1.7KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,50TBripped files

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