Best Nvidia CUDA Card for HQPlayer

[AudioDoctor]

10 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

If anyone in this thread could help me with a quick test I would appreciate it:

I am thinking about getting a GPU to handle up-sampling using HQP, but my goal is to have a completely passively cooled system. The case (HDPlex H5) can handle 95W TDP per heatsink, and has two heatsinks. I can use one for the CPU (to be decided) and one for the GPU. I will be getting the Holo May soon, so the higher the sample rate the better (PCM 1.5M and DSD 512 would be golden. DSD 1024).

 

I do not think I can count on a CPU-only build due to the limited heat dissipation of the cases I want to use (95W TDP). Can push it to 125W TDP, but I would really rather not.

 

Could someone try TDP limiting their A4000 and CPU to 90W and see what is the upper limit of up-sampling possible using one of the intense filters (sinc-L, ext3, xla)? @Cornell77 and @Rovo if you see this and could maybe help with an experiment in your systems, I would truly appreciate it.

 

This is what I built in. The case is not easy to get, you will have to wait, and it's a pain in the ass to build in. But once that's done you're good to go. I have an AMD 5900X and a 3080Ti in mine, undervolted and 100% passively cooled.

 

https://www.monsterlabo.com/the-beast

[NellyWhads]

9 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

This is what I built in. The case is not easy to get, you will have to wait, and it's a pain in the ass to build in. But once that's done you're good to go. I have an AMD 5900X and a 3080Ti in mine, undervolted and 100% passively cooled.

 

https://www.monsterlabo.com/the-beast

Woah. It's good to know something like this exists. It is definitely overkill. Like building a full gaming PC.

From my time with Audiolinux and HQPlayer so far, I can sinc-L up-sample to 768k with no issues. Just on CPU using an i7 7700k. How much I want to spend to get up to 1.5M and DSD 512.... is another question.

 

Thank you for sharing this option, I will keep an eye on the used market. Maybe I'll get lucky.

[AudioDoctor]

15 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

Woah. It's good to know something like this exists. It is definitely overkill. Like building a full gaming PC.

From my time with Audiolinux and HQPlayer so far, I can sinc-L up-sample to 768k with no issues. Just on CPU using an i7 7700k. How much I want to spend to get up to 1.5M and DSD 512.... is another question.

 

Thank you for sharing this option, I will keep an eye on the used market. Maybe I'll get lucky.

 

The company does have a Discord. I haven't looked to see if anyone is selling any used cases, but the company will build the thing for you, and ship it to you from the UK where they are based as well.

 

I would not call it overkill either. If you want to push HQP to the upper end of its capabilities you're going to need some power to do so. Additionally, I am pretty sure the new generation of CPUs and GPUs will be too hot to use passively at all without going to massively overkill extremes that make this look tiny.

[NellyWhads]

5 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

The company does have a Discord. I haven't looked to see if anyone is selling any used cases, but the company will build the thing for you, and ship it to you from the UK where they are based as well.

 

I would not call it overkill either. If you want to push HQP to the upper end of its capabilities you're going to need some power to do so. Additionally, I am pretty sure the new generation of CPUs and GPUs will be too hot to use passively at all without going to massively overkill extremes that make this look tiny.

From my research so far your final comment here definitely checks out. There are a lot of advances in manufacturing processes, etc., but in order to build something which will last as my last build did, it will need to be relatively top spec.... welp.

 

The A4000 is such a good proposition. If they would spec a build with something like the A6000 in it for me, then I think it would be a good way to go. I much prefer to build my own system by hand though. Let's see what they say, I'll reach out.

 

In the mean time, if anyone can help with that A4000 TDP limit test, I would definitely appreciate it. Just to see what's reasonably possible in the H5 case.

[AudioDoctor]

21 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

From my research so far your final comment here definitely checks out. There are a lot of advances in manufacturing processes, etc., but in order to build something which will last as my last build did, it will need to be relatively top spec.... welp.

 

The A4000 is such a good proposition. If they would spec a build with something like the A6000 in it for me, then I think it would be a good way to go. I much prefer to build my own system by hand though. Let's see what they say, I'll reach out.

 

In the mean time, if anyone can help with that A4000 TDP limit test, I would definitely appreciate it. Just to see what's reasonably possible in the H5 case.

 

I am sure somewhere on their website I see someone using one of those two GPUs in it. I do poly-sinc-gauss-long for 1x rates and poly-sinc-gauss-hires-lp for Nx rates to DSD 256 because that's the sweet spot for me and it keeps everything nice and cool (entirely passively) but I can go higher if so desired. Of course, heat kills PC components so I try not to for much more than demonstration purposes. If you order it from the company, they also do the OS tuning, which I found even more of a pain than installing the GPU and Motherboard backwards with all the wires and cables connected. I also had to hunt down a PCI extension cable for the Jcat card as well as 3d print a plate for it for the back of the case. Ordering it from them and they do all of that for you if you don't like hassling with that stuff. If you do, it's an adventure anyone can accomplish with enough patience.

 

edit: I found it, Quadro 4000 GPU and a PCI card.

https://www.monsterlabo.com/post/01-sep-assembly-of-the-beast-w--rtx-4000-rednet-pci-card-audio

 

Further edit: An M1 Mac mini will upsample to PCM 1.5mhz easily. All day every day probably for a very long time. It will not go past DSD 256 with any intensive filters active. It's limited at 256 in which filters it can use as well. If you didn't care about DSD, that would be the way to go. I don't know how the May DAC handles DSD being an R2R DAC. Some R2R DACs convert DSD to PCM before the DAC stage.

 

Final edit: IMO this is nothing but intentional obfuscation, from the Holo website.

 

Quote

DSD is natively supported on this Discrete Resistor Ladder DAC

HoloAudio is the world’s first to support DSD natively on Resistor Ladder DAC, so far the only one. This is not the DSD converted to PCM before digital-analog converter, but directly by the discrete components of the DSD digital to analog converter. Supported currently on MAC (DOP)and Linux (DOP), and Windows/PC (Direct Native and DOP). Please note, the word ‘R2R’ is the name of a kind of architecture of resistor ladders. This architecture requires less resistors yet still is capable to deliver more than acceptable performance. Most DACs in the industry use this architecture. The DSD Dac module resistor network of May Dac does not use R2R architecture for the DSD, more specifically it uses a very specific architecture which is optimized to perform DSD data to analog. So to be entirely accurate the DSD part of May Dac is using resistor ladders, not R2R..

 

In my understanding, R2R is a resistor ladder or a multi-bit chip which does the same thing. Because we can all look at the pictures of the DAC and see they are not using a Multi-bit chip We know it is using a Resistor Ladder which is an R2R by another name.

[pis99]

26 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

From my research so far your final comment here definitely checks out. There are a lot of advances in manufacturing processes, etc., but in order to build something which will last as my last build did, it will need to be relatively top spec.... welp.

 

The A4000 is such a good proposition. If they would spec a build with something like the A6000 in it for me, then I think it would be a good way to go. I much prefer to build my own system by hand though. Let's see what they say, I'll reach out.

 

In the mean time, if anyone can help with that A4000 TDP limit test, I would definitely appreciate it. Just to see what's reasonably possible in the H5 case.

I currently have 12900KS AIO 360 with RTX A6000. The A6000 gets very hot when running Sinc-L filter at 1024DSD. I have to find out another cooling solution for A6000 so I feel comfortable for long playing time. A4000 maybe different though.

[NellyWhads]

27 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I found it, Quadro 4000 GPU and a PCI card.

https://www.monsterlabo.com/post/01-sep-assembly-of-the-beast-w--rtx-4000-rednet-pci-card-audio

This is cool, but the P4000 only has 8GB of memory and is listed on their site as a compatible card. A4000 has 16GB and would be ideal to work with for DSD upsampling.

If I were to scale back the requirements to just 1.5M PCM up-sampling and DSD passthrough, could I get away with just a 95W TDP CPU? What's the fastest/highest spec'd CPU I can run with that thermal limit (I'm Googling this as we speak as well). No Apple hardware for me. Need linux base so I can spend hours and days tuning kernel parameters to perfection in a LPSU + no-moving-parts build.

 

Edit:

 

28 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I don't know how the May DAC handles DSD being an R2R DAC. Some R2R DACs convert DSD to PCM before the DAC stage.

 

The May has 2 separate pairs (stereo) of R2R implementations. One L/R pair for PCM, and a second standalone implementation for DSD. My "realistic" goal is to feed each implementation the highest possible sample rate (PCM 1.5M or DSD 1024) given the appropriate source content. 

 

Given your feedback and a better understanding of hardware requirements I'm updating my ask to the following:

A system that can up-sample PCM to 1.5M and DSD to 1024 given the matching input format. The more complex the filter it can handle, the better, so that as Jussi comes out with new ideas in the future, I don't have to worry about hardware components and can focus on other unnecessary diminishing returns (such as motherboard clock upgrades and LPSU).

[AudioDoctor]

8 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

If I were to scale back the requirements to just 1.5M PCM up-sampling and DSD passthrough, could I get away with just a 95W TDP CPU? What's the fastest/highest spec'd CPU I can run with that thermal limit (I'm Googling this as we speak as well). No Apple hardware for me. Need linux base so I can spend hours and days tuning kernel parameters to perfection in a LPSU + no-moving-parts build.

 

If that were the case, a 5600x would be ideal. Perhaps a 7600X if you want a new one. It has a TDP of 105 watts, but I don't think you would be running it near max performance for upsampling to 1.5mhz and DSD pass through.

 

edit: I haven't tried it yet, but Marcin of Jcat insists his ATX LPSU will power even my beast...

[NellyWhads]

13 minutes ago, pis99 said:

I currently have 12900KS AIO 360 with RTX A6000. The A6000 gets very hot when running Sinc-L filter at 1024DSD. I have to find out another cooling solution for A6000 so I feel comfortable for long playing time. A4000 maybe different though.

Thank you for your input - given your feedback and @AudioDoctor's, I think it's more appropriate to target within the same family of source content. I can't afford an A6000 anyways lol. And if I get an A40, I might as well just use it for Deep Learning instead of up-sampling using filters lol

[NellyWhads]

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

 

If that were the case, a 5600x would be ideal. Perhaps a 7600X if you want a new one. It has a TDP of 105 watts, but I don't think you would be running it near max performance for upsampling to 1.5mhz and DSD pass through.

How do I find spec requirements for DSD 64 -> DSD 1024 up-sampling?

 

If the 7600X can handle it, I can just stick with my current Streacom FC8 case (87W TDP) and upgrade CPU + MOBO + RAM and focus on the next steps (Clocks, LPSU, etc.) instead of rebuilding in a new case.

[AudioDoctor]

2 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

How do I find spec requirements for DSD 64 -> DSD 1024 up-sampling?

 

I don't think there are specs available as the filter and modulator combinations are too numerous. I just know that the higher you go, the more power is needed to crunch through the math. There is likely a lot of info here on this website, however it is not collated into one easily read document but scattered all over the place in various threads.

[NellyWhads]

4 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I don't think there are specs available as the filter and modulator combinations are too numerous. I just know that the higher you go, the more power is needed to crunch through the math.

Hm, I was thinking if you're starting with DSD64, interpolating to a higher 1-bit sample rate would be significantly less computationally expensive compared to starting all the way at RedBook. Perhaps @Miska could provide some insight based on implementation of the most taxing filters.

 

Edit: I wonder if there are any statistical/machine learning methods cooking in his kitchen... an inference engine for up-sampling like Sony's DSEE could be pretty spiffy cool... maybe I should look into it

[AudioDoctor]

3 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

Hm, I was thinking if you're starting with DSD64, interpolating to a higher 1-bit sample rate would be significantly less computationally expensive compared to starting all the way at RedBook. Perhaps @Miska could provide some insight based on implementation of the most taxing filters.

 

Edit: I wonder if there are any statistical/machine learning methods cooking in his kitchen... an inference engine for up-sampling like Sony's DSEE could be pretty spiffy cool... maybe I should look into it

 

I have no idea, as I generally don't upsample the DSD, I just leave it as is and only upsample the PCM.

[NellyWhads]

 

3 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I have no idea, as I generally don't upsample the DSD, I just leave it as is and only upsample the PCM.

Now hold on just one second... if you're only doing PCM (I assume with something that's heavy hitting like a sinc- or -ext3 filter), and a 5600x could probably handle it.... why the passively cooled beast? lol

[NellyWhads]

Just found this (looks like DSD64 -> DSD1024 will still need a GPU):
 

 

[AudioDoctor]

5 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

 

Now hold on just one second... if you're only doing PCM (I assume with something that's heavy hitting like a sinc- or -ext3 filter), and a 5600x could probably handle it.... why the passively cooled beast? lol

 

I upsample PCM to DSD. I do not upsample DSD to higher rate DSD.

[NellyWhads]

4 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I upsample PCM to DSD. I do not upsample DSD to higher rate DSD.

Got it. If you have some time to experiment, would you mind trying out CPU-only DSD 64 to DSD ___, whatever your system can handle?

If your DAC is capped at some limit, that's understandable. Also, I completely understand if it's too much of a hassle to reconfigure and invest time to test. I've asked the other author to share his thoughts as well in the linked thread.

[AudioDoctor]

2 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

Got it. If you have some time to experiment, would you mind trying out CPU-only DSD 64 to DSD ___, whatever your system can handle?

If your DAC is capped at some limit, that's understandable. Also, I completely understand if it's too much of a hassle to reconfigure and invest time to test. I've asked the other author to share his thoughts as well in the linked thread.

 

It's a click of the "CUDA" button. I can do that but not tonight.

[pis99]

32 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

Thank you for your input - given your feedback and @AudioDoctor's, I think it's more appropriate to target within the same family of source content. I can't afford an A6000 anyways lol. And if I get an A40, I might as well just use it for Deep Learning instead of up-sampling using filters lol

I also have a 3090 card that works equally well. Can do Sinc-L at 1024DSD! 3090 used one even for mining could be way cheap than A4000 and it has 24G mems for Sinc-L. 

[NellyWhads]

3 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

It's a click of the "CUDA" button. I can do that but not tonight.

Many thanks,

 

I'll hold off on the local HDPlex H5 used deal for a few days and see what Jussi and others say based on their experience. The less components to worry about the better, but being able to get "the best possible sound" is something we continue to hunt.

[AudioDoctor]

1 minute ago, pis99 said:

I also have a 3090 card that works equally well. Can do Sinc-L at 1024DSD! 3090 used one even for mining could be way cheap than A4000 and it has 24G mems for Sinc-L. 

 

That it can do since-L at 1024 is awesome. That card is so powerful. I thought about putting one in my system but I would have had to undervolt it pretty heavily.

[NellyWhads]

1 minute ago, pis99 said:

I also have a 3090 card that works equally well. Can do Sinc-L at 1024DSD! 3090 used one even for mining could be way cheap than A4000 and it has 24G mems for Sinc-L. 

Would you mind sharing the load your card experiences when up-sampling from Red Book to DSD 1024? I would take a shot with the 3090 (given the memory availability) if I could cool it passively in the H5 (meaning it needs to operate at 95-100W TDP). This is less than half of the spec of the card.

[AudioDoctor]

2 minutes ago, NellyWhads said:

Many thanks,

 

I'll hold off on the local HDPlex H5 used deal for a few days and see what Jussi and others say based on their experience. The less components to worry about the better, but being able to get "the best possible sound" is something we continue to hunt.

 

Here is an idea. Get the Holo DAC first, and then decide if you like PCM or DSD better.

[AudioDoctor]

Just now, NellyWhads said:

Would you mind sharing the load your card experiences when up-sampling from Red Book to DSD 1024? I would take a shot with the 3090 (given the memory availability) if I could cool it passively in the H5 (meaning it needs to operate at 95-100W TDP). This is less than half of the spec of the card.

That will NEVER happen.

[pis99]

1 minute ago, NellyWhads said:

Many thanks,

 

I'll hold off on the local HDPlex H5 used deal for a few days and see what Jussi and others say based on their experience. The less components to worry about the better, but being able to get "the best possible sound" is something we continue to hunt.

I tried many setups! In the end, It is the sound from HQP pushed me into other directions. And we both know the HQP relies on computing power. So beefy CPU is the key to get best sound from HQP. 

 

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

 

That it can do since-L at 1024 is awesome. That card is so powerful. I thought about putting one in my system but I would have had to undervolt it pretty heavily.

Yes, I think the 24G of 3090 is the key for sinc-l.