Starting fresh…looking for suggestions

[marksas3]

Ok, so i'm about to purchase a new AVR, a mac mini, and possibly ATV4 to replace my old onkyo avr, early 2009 Mac Mini and ATV3. I would like some suggestions for optimizing quality streaming music from my own files as well as from services like TIDAL but am unsure and confused by all the available options for networking hardware, isolation, etc etc. I don't own any high res files, i mainly use ALAC files on an external firewire drive connected to the Mac Mini, i also stream TIDAL using Airplay through the ATV. In the future I may try ROON to control the library.

My system (5.1) resides on the first floor living room and does double duty as home theater and music, the computer system is located in a second floor office hardwired to the first floor by ethernet, about 30' or so.

 

This is what it looks like:

2nd Floor -

Comcast cable modem > Cat6 > Airport Extreme (latest model) > Cat6 > Mac Mini < external firewire drive(iTunes library)

First Floor

>Netgear GS105 gigabit switch which feeds the current ATV3 and a Bluray player and will also connect the new AVR as well rather than using WiFi.

ATV3 > optical > AVR (soon to be Marantz SR5010) > B&K Reference 200.5 amp (200w x 5ch) > B&W 684s2 fronts, HTM61 Center, Mirage OMD5 surrounds, Velodyne Sub

 

Like i said, i'll be replacing the 2009 Mac Mini with a new one soon and i've ordered all new Blue Jeans Cat6a cables to replace all existing ethernet cables. So i'm looking to see what else i can implement or change the way my files get to the Marantz AVR. For instance, should i be using a network drive instead of the firewire? or use a NAS instead? Should i transform the 2009 Mini into a dedicated server? Btw, the current Mac Mini is also used by the wife for daily tasks.

Even though i use the ATV currently to stream music, i'm open to other products and just use it for movies. Ultimately i care more about the music.

 

Thanks for any suggestions

[marksas3]

ok about 100 views and nothing? Disheartening.

[Kal Rubinson]

ok about 100 views and nothing? Disheartening.

Your situation is complex and highly specific. My only suggestion is based on my experience that streaming to/with an AVR/prepro using its own GUI or via Ethernet/USB is frustratingly limited. I would (and do) store files on a NAS so it is available for any client/use and re-employ the old MacMini as a dedicated server for the AVR with an local HDMI connection.

[marksas3]

Your situation is complex and highly specific. My only suggestion is based on my experience that streaming to/with an AVR/prepro using its own GUI or via Ethernet/USB is frustratingly limited. I would (and do) store files on a NAS so it is available for any client/use and re-employ the old MacMini as a dedicated server for the AVR with an local HDMI connection.

 

Thanks first for the reply, much appreciated.

 

Is my situation really complex? Maybe i'm making it sound that way. As it is right now, in one room is the network hardware, external firewire drive and Mac Mini sending info via a long ethernet run to an Apple TV connected to the AVR via optical. I'm really just looking to make sure that music files reach the endpoint, being the AVR, without any degradation, and if it seems not what could i improve on?

So in my current setup, is maybe just using high quality ethernet cables like the highly recommended Blue Jeans Cat6a good enough? Or would using fiber optic cabling rather than the ethernet cables to get there be the better option? I'm still learning about that and am curious about implementing it. Or like you say, maybe re-employ the old Mac Mini as the dedicated server connected locally to the AVR via HDMI.

Reading peoples sig's on this forum and all the associated gear gets me thinking about my own setup, as well as all the obvious threads about networking and streaming, it makes me feel as if i should be going about it differently and implementing other products if that makes sense.

[wgscott]

It seems needlessly complex. Having just replaced my ATV3 with ATV4, I can assure you it will do nothing new if all you want to do is stream video and audio. Why are you replacing ethernet cables? Why are you even using them, apart from going from your modem to the airport extreme? Why do you need to stream via the ATV at all if you have a mac mini? Why do you need a NAS? Why would you need two mac minis?

 

I'm sure you have good reasons for all of these, and obviously you should feel free to set your system up with whatever complexity suits you, but it is asking a lot for other people to simply read this and immediately understand what it is you are trying to do, and what you want us to suggest.

 

My personal suggestion is to simplify everything.

[marksas3]

It seems needlessly complex. Having just replaced my ATV3 with ATV4, I can assure you it will do nothing new if all you want to do is stream video and audio. Why are you replacing ethernet cables? Why are you even using them, apart from going from your modem to the airport extreme? Why do you need to stream via the ATV at all if you have a mac mini? Why do you need a NAS? Why would you need two mac minis?

 

I'm sure you have good reasons for all of these, and obviously you should feel free to set your system up with whatever complexity suits you, but it is asking a lot for other people to simply read this and immediately understand what it is you are trying to do, and what you want us to suggest.

 

My personal suggestion is to simplify everything.

 

I agree with you whole heartidly, simplicity is best, which is partly the reason for the post, to get suggestions!

So to answer your questions...

 

- Changing to the ATV4 is just a matter of change period, like going from an iPhone 5 to an iPhone 6, i'm not expecting any improvements in audio, just the newer features, experience etc.

 

- I am using ethernet cables because years ago i bought my first networkable bluray player and ran ethernet to it so that i would reduce or eliminate any hiccups, dropouts and buffering when viewing movies on services like Vudu and also same for the ATV. Sure i could beef up the wifi and eventually may do that.

 

- Changing ethernet cables is like tweaking anything else in your system, you may change your power cables, speaker cables or other cables because you think you may improve upon what you have.

 

- The Mac Mini is located on the second floor while the AVR is on the first, which is why i stream to the ATV, but also because i currently have an older Onkyo AVR without any networking capabilities. Like i said, i will soon be purchasing a new AVR, like the Marantz 5010, so maybe this will change how i do things? Also, are you suggesting that i don't use the ATV at all for music and run a 30' optical cable to the AVR?

 

- I don't NEED a NAS, i'm only asking if it would be better option to use than my current firewire drive setup/Mac Mini setup.

 

- I don't NEED two Mac Minis either, just thinking if i could put it use after replacing it with a new one in our office.

 

At the end of the day, i really want the least amount of equipment between the source and the AVR, but also want to ensure that the source is reaching the AVR at it's best. Currently i stream all my music, i don't use CD's anymore or rarely, and i don't spin vinyl either. For music sources i currently use TIDAL and my iTunes library on an external firewire drive connected to the 2009 Mac Mini which btw runs like a dog since upgrading to a newer OSX.

[Cebolla]

If your music source is just going to be stored music files that can be made available on your home network (eg stored on a computer, NAS, etc) and internet music streaming services like TIDAL, you certainly don't need to use a modern decent AVR, such as the Marantz 5010, as an external DAC to a computer (Mac or otherwise) or even to connect to a separate streamer (like the ATV).

 

AVRs like the Marantz 5010 have their own network file playback and streaming capabilities, such as UPnP/DLNA and AirPlay, to avoid such complexity. This allows for best sound quality, by playing back the music file data, decoding it to the digital audio signal directly into their own (internal) DACs.

[marksas3]

If your music source is just going to be stored music files that can be made available on your home network (eg stored on a computer, NAS, etc) and internet music streaming services like TIDAL, you certainly don't need to use a modern decent AVR, such as the Marantz 5010, as an external DAC to a computer (Mac or otherwise) or even to connect to a separate streamer (like the ATV).

 

AVRs like the Marantz 5010 have their own network file playback and streaming capabilities, such as UPnP/DLNA and AirPlay, to avoid such complexity. This allows for best sound quality, by playing back the music file data, decoding it to the digital audio signal directly into their own (internal) DACs.

 

Right, so your saying connect the AVR directly to the router via WiFi/Ethernet and call it a day, can't be any simpler than that! This would also just leave the ATV to use for other media like movies and photos and such and not be used for music, that's probably better.

 

I may check out Roon for future use so i would assume that this setup would work fine for that and be an improvement over any app the AVR provides.

[Cebolla]

Right, so your saying connect the AVR directly to the router via WiFi/Ethernet and call it a day, can't be any simpler than that! This would also just leave the ATV to use for other media like movies and photos and such and not be used for music, that's probably better.

Indeed.

 

 

I may check out Roon for future use so i would assume that this setup would work fine for that and be an improvement over any app the AVR provides.

I'm not an expert in Roon's proprietary system, but I believe it supports Airplay, though not UPnP/DLNA.

 

Incidentally, the whole point of UPnP standard is that it is open to all. This means you need not be stuck with using the AVR's provided app for music file streaming and you should be able to use third party control apps that support UPnP, such as the excellent & much praised BubbleUPnP Android app.

[marksas3]

Incidentally, the whole point of UPnP standard is that it is open to all. This means you need not be stuck with using the AVR's provided app for music file streaming and you should be able to use third party control apps that support UPnP, such as the excellent & much praised BubbleUPnP Android app.

 

Thanks, I've always only been in the Apple ecosystem but i may check out BubbleUPnP also since i just inherited a free LG G Pad F8.0 from AT&T. Thinking of employing solely for music management at home.

[Kal Rubinson]

Why do you need a NAS?

I suggested that for long-term convenience. To accommodate any future system reconfigurations, keep the files as independent storage.

 

Why would you need two mac minis?

My knee-jerk response in that I always presume that one should have the option of hi-rez MCH.

[Cebolla]

Thanks, I've always only been in the Apple ecosystem but i may check out BubbleUPnP also since i just inherited a free LG G Pad F8.0 from AT&T. Thinking of employing solely for music management at home.

An 8" tablet should be ideal for running a UPnP/DLNA control point app. The UPnP control point will give you the ability to select your music file tracks from the media library into playlists, managing those playlists and controlling the playback of those playlists on the AVR. Some UPnP control points also provide additional functions, eg BubbleUPnP's support for accessing some popular internet music streaming services (includes TIDAL & Qobuz).

 

What it won't give you is the ability to manipulate the structure of the media library database that is managing your music files that are stored on the remote network device. That is the purpose of the UPnP/DLNA media server, which is normally run on the device that is handling the storage that contains the music files. So in your current setup, you are going to need to run a UPnP/DLNA media server on your Mac. A decent music file dedicated UPnP media server to use, that's also well supported, is the free (donation optional) MinimServer:

MinimServer features

MinimServer can also be run on some makes of NAS (such as Synology & QNAP), so the structure of your media library will be maintained should you choose to migrate to one of its supported NASs in the future.

[marksas3]

An 8" tablet should be ideal for running a UPnP/DLNA control point app. The UPnP control point will give you the ability to select your music file tracks from the media library into playlists, managing those playlists and controlling the playback of those playlists on the AVR. Some UPnP control points also provide additional functions, eg BubbleUPnP's support for accessing some popular internet music streaming services (includes TIDAL & Qobuz).

 

What it won't give you is the ability to manipulate the structure of the media library database that is managing your music files that are stored on the remote network device. That is the purpose of the UPnP/DLNA media server, which is normally run on the device that is handling the storage that contains the music files. So in your current setup, you are going to need to run a UPnP/DLNA media server on your Mac. A decent music file dedicated UPnP media server to use, that's also well supported, is the free (donation optional) MinimServer:

MinimServer features

MinimServer can also be run on some makes of NAS (such as Synology & QNAP), so the structure of your media library will be maintained should you choose to migrate to one of its supported NASs in the future.

 

Fantastic info, thank you, I've been wondering about minimserver.

I think I will experiment with both software options, BubbleUpnp / MinimServer combo and Roon, and see which I prefer more, of course the latter will be much more expensive.

[Cebolla]

Experimenting is certainly a good idea - you can even try the options without waiting for the new AVR to arrive. The BubbleUPnP app has a local (UPnP) renderer function, which you can switch on to turn the Android device itself into a UPnP streamer and of course you can use one of your iOS devices for AirPlay streaming with Roon.

[theswissgator]

You mentioned that you currently use your ATV3 and connect optically to your AVR. Just be aware that the ATV4 loses the optical output if that is important to you.

 

I've posted a different thread as a newbie asking about best ways to stream my music to my soon to be delivered DAC/PreAmp/Amp so chime in if you have a chance!

 

Thanks

[marksas3]

You mentioned that you currently use your ATV3 and connect optically to your AVR. Just be aware that the ATV4 loses the optical output if that is important to you.

 

I've posted a different thread as a newbie asking about best ways to stream my music to my soon to be delivered DAC/PreAmp/Amp so chime in if you have a chance!

 

Thanks

 

 

Losing optical is not a big deal for me, it was done previously out of necessity with my old AVR, but there are some people who prefer to keep the audio and video separate.

[streamingaudioproject]

I'd cancel that order for Cat6 ethernet. Cat5e is perfectly adequate for any domestic scenario. Only time I've deployed gigabit networks is in data centres, banks or where there are large distances between buildings (in which case you need converters + fibre). In my house I use bog standard Cat5 + powerline which streams video and audio just fine.

[marksas3]

I'd cancel that order for Cat6 ethernet. Cat5e is perfectly adequate for any domestic scenario. Only time I've deployed gigabit networks is in data centres, banks or where there are large distances between buildings (in which case you need converters + fibre). In my house I use bog standard Cat5 + powerline which streams video and audio just fine.

 

Thanks for the input…forgive my ignorance but what is 'powerline'?

[streamingaudioproject]

Hi, see here...Powerline Adapters - Welcome to TP-LINK

[Audio_ELF]

I'd cancel that order for Cat6 ethernet. Cat5e is perfectly adequate for any domestic scenario. Only time I've deployed gigabit networks is in data centres, banks or where there are large distances between buildings (in which case you need converters + fibre). In my house I use bog standard Cat5 + powerline which streams video and audio just fine.

IMO Powerline is a bad concept for audio. You're looking for the cleanest possible power supply and powerline just adds more noise to the power.

 

As for Cat6 vs Cat5e; while yes Cat5e is likely good enough, Cat6 offers a few advantages (as well as potential to run HDMI with HDBaseT converters) and costs only a little more. If you are going to do the job properly, then you may as well future proof it a little.

[skolis]

IMO Powerline is a bad concept for audio. You're looking for the cleanest possible power supply and powerline just adds more noise to the power.

 

As for Cat6 vs Cat5e; while yes Cat5e is likely good enough, Cat6 offers a few advantages (as well as potential to run HDMI with HDBaseT converters) and costs only a little more. If you are going to do the job properly, then you may as well future proof it a little.

 

++++++1111111

 

As an experiment for local WiFi I tried these - maybe 3 -4 throughout the house.

They are POS in terms of consistent connection and dropouts. I'm throwing them all out.