Design a PC/Server for ROON and HQ Player

[ted_b]

I notice that the majority of ideas here (esp Jussi/Miska and Andew S's designs) include an internal psu rather than dealing with a dc-dc pico psu and an external linear power supply. Is this because the internals are so much better now, or maybe because when used with an NAA the HQP/Roon machine doesn't need the last drops of quiet? I ask cuz I have posted about my current music server dying (reboots itself every 30 minutes) and is WS2012 R2, an OS that dacs like NADAC (my next review subject) do not like. So as long as I'm moving to Win 10 pro, might as well build a machine.

[ted_b]

As I look at the power draw and heat provided by an i7 6700k, a Mellanox or Intel fiber card, and maybe a GPU card....I'm beginning to see the wisdom of Jussi's design, with larger (and cheaper) case and cooling fans. An NAA puts the HQP machine in the home office. But do I need multiple PCIe slots for fiber card and NVidia? I don't see any of these mobos (Jussi's or Andrew's) providing them, but maybe I'm looking at the wrong spec.

[ted_b]

Yes, you'll need number of slots. This is the board I'm using:

GIGABYTE - Motherboard - Socket 1151 - GA-Z170X-UD5 TH (rev. 1.0)

 

It has one PCIe 16x, one PCIe 8x, one PCIe 4x and three PCIe 1x slots. So total six PCIe slots. Typical graphics card, like the GTX 980 I have, will consume two slots, so one PCIe 1x becomes unavailable due to that. HQPlayer doesn't yet support multiple GPUs in SLI configuration, but I may add that support later.

 

Plus if you want blazingly fast boot, it has M.2 SSD card slot. It also has USB-C 3.1 / Thunderbolt 3 connectors and all the other latest bells and whistles...

 

Thanks Jussi. Did you think at all about including a dc-dc pico and linear external ps instead of a rather standard Seasonic internal ps? I ask even though my current server has died and it might have to do with the dc-dc pico, dunno. My mobo won't boot...oh well. Gonna build this new server and want the last details ironed out. Thx

[ted_b]

Ted,

 

Unplug and look at the cable going from the pico PS to the CPU socket on the motherboard. I had one go bad.

 

Will do...thx

[ted_b]

No, I'm not convinced that it would have any benefits since DC-DC and SMPS are technically equivalent. The graphics card alone consumes peak 165W and takes power in using two 6-pin power cables. The Seasonic PSU can give out 20A current on +3.3V and +5V rails and 43A on +12V rail, comes with 7 years warranty and 150000 hour MTBF. For dual graphics card setup and bigger CPU, the machine would need bigger PSU than the 520W silent Seasonic, something like this:

X-1250 - Sea Sonic

 

That damn Quadro M4000 of yours is a $900 card! Yikes. What do you think is an inexpensive card that will help me when CUDA offloading multichannel? Also, I am going i7 6700k, a GPU card maybe like this https://pcpartpicker.com/part/evga-video-card-04gp41962kr

and a fiber card. You think 520w is still fine? PCpartspicker has me at 314W before the fiber card.

[ted_b]

Note: this is a quote from the T+A DAC 8 DSD thread that was getting a bit hijacked, some of which was my doing. I thought it best to continue here.

 

Ted: I can't remember clearly, but I thought you were ultimately going to use this build for HQPlayer upsampling but then through an NAA. Is that correct? If so, I'd love to understand how much you (or Jussi or Eurodriver) feel that noise in the upstream processing PC gets carried downstream past the NAA? I think that Eurodriver has commented earlier in the thread that even with an NAA keeping the processing PC quiet is important.

 

I would think that in general as processing power, RAM memory and modules and GPU power (and cooling requirements) and overall system power go up, so does the noise. Depending on how that enters the data stream it presumably can't be taken out by downstream components, whether an NAA or a fiber optic bridge.

 

Don't mean to sidetrack the T+a dac 8 dsd thread, but it seems that DAC is really benefited by feeding it the best DSD512 upsampled input (probably not that different from your exasound).

 

That is a very good question. Jussi's build is more based on cpu/gpu power and slightly less focused on silence (although he chooses fanless ps, etc), as he points out that with NAA architecture you can put the HQP machine in another room. However, does this slightly lesser focus on silence/noise put at risk the overall sq going to the NAA? Dunno. I mean, I certainly want enough horsepower to do the things I want to do (upsample everything 2 channel to DSD512 for certain dacs; upsample as much as I can to DSD256 or 512 for multichannel for the exaSound e28, NADAC, etc. no convolving, no active crossovers or anything)

 

Additionally I am stuck at one final architecture question: power delivery. I seem to be given three choices:

* internal fanless 520W Seasonic-type ATX power supply (Jussi's choice)

* dc-dc pico psu (16-24W) and a dc umbilical to my external Hynes SR7EHD linear power supply.

* a modular ATX external linear ps with umbilicals and bridges to each component (HDplex is the perfect example but this feedback is not overly impressive; maybe they didn't let the ps break in)

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/building-hdplex-300w-atx-linear-power-supply-unit-28158/

 

So...I am going to go with mostly Jussi's build except maybe case/power and certainly cpu (I'm going i7 6700K out of the gate). But the question of doing silent single pc (Eurodriver's latest recommendation) or NAA and be damned a little fan noise...is still up in the air.

[ted_b]

I guess you'll really like me some more for this correction again

 

Bear with me for a while though:

 

Jussi indeed is also focusing on noise reduction with the NAA configuration: The NAA allows you a couple of extra gains over the pure Main Computer -> USB -> DAC configuration, let's see why:

 

In the Main Computer direct to DAC USB connection, the various noise pollution aspects have a direct component (on top of others like air-borne and Power supply-related ones) within the USB connection, subject to all the noise the Main Computer circuit itself generates.

 

In the NAA configuration, that junction between the USB DAC and the NAA device can still done with USB, but the NAA is a much, much simpler device electrically (say a BeagleBone Black) than the main Computer, and therefore it's noise profile for the direct connection is less.

 

Now, what good would this be, if in the end, you're just connecting the Main Computer to the NAA device through USB and suffer the same direct pollution?

 

That wouldn't be much good at all. Which is why we aren't doing that: we are using Ethernet to connect the NAA device to the Main Computer. Thus, you don't get the noise profile of USB. Note that Ethernet itself isn't completely noise-free for our purposes. However, within each Ethernet connector lies a tiny transformer which provides a measure of isolation.

 

Hence, the big, direct noise profile of the Main Computer is segregated from the NAA device and the DAC.

 

Now, with Ethernet, you get the additional, very commendable benefit of being able to fruitfully use a longer run as well without any issue (not so with USB and the usual analogue cables), so that you can also decide to set up your main computer away from the listening room, in a cabinet or what not.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Thanks, again good stuff, but I've been using an NAA since day one. I get it; the question was generated from Eurodriver's complete opposite findings...i.e. that single pc, done right (OCD levels of right) sounded better to them than the NAA setup. This flies in the face of what I had encountered, but Edward is a voice to listen to, so I threw it out there. Yes, my NAA has a JCAT USB card with correct linear power to it (if needed....I have the two USB ports separately setup with different power/filter profiles) and is on my fiber network, etc.

 

When I said Jussi is not as focused on silence (for the HQP machine, specifically) as others, it is simply because he stated it. He was quick to point out that clean horsepower is no 1, and if a fan bothers you stick the HQP machine in another room; NAA (of course) allows for that. It generated sdolezalik's question above.

[ted_b]

Yes, we should fly John and Jussi in to RMAF and have a audiophile server camp and dac camp where they host and moderate a DIY build room for an audiophile server and Jussi's DSC1 or 2. Client/server? Ain't got nothin' on where this is going.

[ted_b]

Stupid question but, for my Jussi-like build, there are numerous Gigabyte Z170X mobos, in particular NewEgg has a sale on one today. So I was going to go with

GIGABYTE GA-Z170X-UD5 (rev. 1.0) LGA 1151 Intel Z170 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.1 USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard ($169 at local Mirocenter)

 

but NewEgg has this for $105 after rebate and promo

GIGABYTE GA-Z170XP-SLI (rev. 1.0) LGA 1151 Intel Z170 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.1 USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard

 

I compared and can't seem to find a difference other than a damn D-Sub connector, which I care less about. Am I missing a bigger picture (for HQPlayer)? Jussi's version has Thunderbolt ($204) but I am not a Mac person and see (maybe short-sighted) no real use for me. Thx

[ted_b]

Nevermind, the Microcenter guy remidned me that the UD5 was much better built, with better heatsinks, caps, etc (he had all versions there) Bought it. Four pieces home, four on way from Newegg. Hopefully this weekend is build time (missing Axpona).

[ted_b]

Are any of you guys that are using the Fractal Define R5 case using the fan controller/front switch (SATA power and fan connectors) or going straight to mobo fan connectors? I've heard stories that fan controller can bother some PSUs when it tries to go to 7V. Dunno. Will try fan controller first.

 

Does anyone know whether it makes any difference me putting the Mellanox fiber card on a PCIex4 or x8 (the x16 is going to the GeForce 960 card)?

[ted_b]

Thanks Jon. Guess x4 is just fine for the fiber NIC (by the way, PCiEX connectors on this Gigabyte mobo are all X16-sized, and I could easily use the x8 but thought I'd keep it as far away from the GeForce as possible).

 

Another question: I was using a Samsung 830 64GB SSD on my previous CAPS Zuma (that died) and was thinking of reusing it for the new HQP build (the build is done but haven't loaded software yet). I power the SSD with battery. It is OS only. Question is: I might want to save that SSD just in case I get the Zuma running again, so since this is an OS-only use, and uses clean 5V battery power, does it really matter the utmost quality of the SSD (I have a spare 60GB OCZ Vertex Plus unused)?

[ted_b]

My custom JCAT SATA cable was likely the problem with my Zuma; I somehow must have crimped it (I'm sure JCAT will help here) cuz it doesn't work on the HQP build and I lost quite a bit of time not discovering that. Do you have any decent sources for one in US (i.e 2 day shipping)? On the power cable, as I said earlier I power the SSD via a battery, so SATA power for the SSD is not an issue. And again, it's OS only, no music. I have 32GB of RAM so I doubt it's used much.

 

Question: what do you folks use as a Windows10-based (not bios-based cuz I am headless) performance monitor, especially for a quick look at temps and loads? CPU-Z? Perfmon?

[ted_b]

My build is up, operational, and sounds incredible. Redbook to DSD512 averages 27% cpu and about 40% GPU (assuming I'm reading right). I moved the Fractal stock fan on the back (exhaust) to the front panel bottom position, and added a Phanteks 140mm for the exhaust, as it is more powerful and I was concerned about the addtl heat produced by my Mellanox fiber card. The dual front fans decision was aided by the fact that they are slightly reduced in their CFM due to pulling air in through dust filters. The filtering in this case is exceptional and I am very pleased.

 

Here is the complete build list:

Intel Core i7-6700K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor

Noctua NH-L9x65 33.8 CFM CPU Cooler

Gigabyte GA-Z170X-UD5 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard

Kingston HyperX Fury Black 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-2133 Memory

Asus GeForce GTX 960 Overclocked 4GB GDDR5 PCI-E Video Card

SeaSonic 520W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular Fanless ATX Power Supply

Microsoft Windows 10 Pro OEM (64-bit)

Phanteks 140mm Cooling Fan (PH-F140SP_BK)

Mellanox Connectx-2 Optical (Fiber) Network PCI-E card

SanDisk SSD PLUS 2.5" 120GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (SSD), OS only, no music

Fractal Design Define R5 case

iFi iUSB 5V power supply for SSD

Roon server

Audiophile Optimizer 2.0 beta 15 (using "strip down Windows 10" service tool option)

HQplayer (sends to NAA)

 

Thanks to Jussi for 90% of this build idea.

[ted_b]

Remote Desktop (from my home office desktop or my ipad).

[ted_b]

Update on earlier post: The JCAT SATA data cable was not broken/crimped, but instead incompatible with my bios settings for the new build, but a couple adjustments and the cable now works...and is wayyy better than the Gigabyte-supplied one (slight harshness reduced to nothing). Barrows' famous "everything matters" signature rules once more.

[ted_b]

Mine is an MNPA19-XTR

[ted_b]

That was lightning fast Thanks, will look for one. And what is in the other end, if you are not fed up with me asking questions that are probably answered already( I did try to find, honestly)?

 

The Mellanox uses a Cisco SFP, and then fibertronics cabling to a Diablo fiber switch. Its all detailed in this thread:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/optical-network-configurations-24641/index4.html#post437616

[ted_b]

I have not done any ramdisk. I tried it (probably incorrectly) a year ago this time, with WS2012R2 and a much smaller machine and it flopped flat, boring and a PITA) I am open to what the Win 10 Pro and HQPlayer ramdisk best practices are these days; heck I have 32GB of RAM.

 

My NAA is a WS2012R1 running AO. It is a CAPS Carbon (Atom processor) with a wonderful JCAT USB card (so mobo USB ports, regardless of type, are irrelevant). It is connected via a FMC and fiber to my Diablo fiber switch.

[ted_b]

Chris, I use a standard 2.5" SSD and power it separately (SOtM battery pack or iFi iUSB power supply). An m-sata ought to be good, though, too.

[ted_b]

Ah, embarrassingly I must say I forgot the HD, and someone, uh humm, didn't put it on 'the list' LOL

So I still need order one still, so, is having a separate ps for the SSD worthwhile given everything you've done to isolate the signal?

 

Then what is the Samsung SSD link above?

 

I really don;t know how effecvtiove the separate power is anymore. I just do it cuz I've been doing it.

 

Al, I haven't really tested the differences between the SOtM battery and the iFi iUSB used as a ps. I have now moved the SOtM battery to my mRendu.

[ted_b]

Is CUDA offloading operational in the latest 3.14 production? I built my machine to your specs back in March

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/design-pc-server-roon-and-hq-player-25796/index6.html#post536775

and hope my GPU card

(Asus GeForce GTX 960 Overclocked 4GB GDDR5 PCI-E Video Card)

is not obsolete after a few months now.

[ted_b]

Interesting. I'm using exactly the same case, fan setup but with a 6700 and have been very happy with it.

 

+1 I love that case.

[ted_b]

9 minutes ago, szczemirek said:

Could you explain me for what (of quality sound) reason you build so powerful PC?
I'm running Roon successfully on modified Thin Client HP t610 with Linux Server and I'm  happy with money in my pocket

If you use Roon in conjunction with HQPlayer (the subject of this thread) then you subscribe to using the best upsampling engine out there..HQPlayer.  Well, upsampling to bit rates like DSD512 requires a lot of cpu (and even GPU at times) so we built powerful servers to do this.  The good news is that the server doesn't necessarily have to be audibly quiet (although mine is and has seven fans, counting cpu and video card fans) just electrically isolated and powerful.  So sit it in another room, in fact.  How?  HQPlayer has something called a Network Audio Adapter (NAA) that sits next to your music rack and connects to HQPlayer server via ethernet.  This is where the dac connects, so this small innocuous machine can be minimalist in design as all it houses is the NAA software and a dac driver (and USB out).  The heavy liting is done by the server box sitting elsewhere in your home.

Ted

P.S.  There are other ways to keep the server away from your music, but NAA is the one you'll see referred to most often.  Adnaco and others are options.

[ted_b]

16 minutes ago, miguelito said:

That's called a microRendu!

Yep!  Or my other NAA is a simple Windows Caps Carbon with JCAT card.  Both do great jobs.