Optical Network Configurations

[SQFIRST]

10 minutes ago, hltf said:

This bigger BPT unit feeds two Uptone LPS which serve two 10GTeks and a Roon Nucleus,

Your last post contains better information where readers can understand and respond with relevant input. You already know not to follow anything blindly so hope you are getting some helpful info from the thread. There are a lot of variables to consider.

What I can suggest is to review your inclusion of the nucleus and switches that appear to be inside your audio segment. 

Have fun trying things and wish you success!

 

 

 

[jabbr]

On 5/27/2024 at 12:06 PM, hltf said:

I haven't used my Pass Labs D1 dac for a while, but when I did in the past with an Oppo player I used to like the optical input best.  OTOH from the very good DCS Network Bridge I used to have (now sold), I used to prefer the AES/EBU input of the Pass Labs DAC.  Most of the time nowadays I use a Bartok DAC with its built-in streamer, so I don't need a separate streamer for that.  But I still have the Pass Labs as a spare dac and want to be able to use it as a back-up, so I got the Holo Red for it.  I plan to check out the Holo Red on the DCS as well, though I doubt it can better the internal streamer of the Bartok when fed by the Roon Nucleus.  As you may know the Holo Red has a Raspeberry Pi internally.  Let's see how they compare I guess...

 

I don't have an isolation transformer specifically but I do have  a very good Balanced Power Transformer unit for all my audio gear which is fed by a dedicated power circuit.  This bigger BPT unit feeds two Uptone LPS which serve two 10GTeks and a Roon Nucleus, and also powers directly Bartok, Linkwitz speaker crossover (no preamp in my setup) and two Parasound multi-channel amps.  

 

Right now I have the first 10GTek and the Nucleus served by one of my two Uptone JS-2s, while the other JS-2 only serves the second 10GTek which sends ethernet to the Bartok.

 

A separate power circuit feeds the Verizon FIOS modem and a Verizon router and the power for these two things also goes through another smaller BPT unit.

 

I suspect the BPTs provide some of the isolation you are talking about as well as cleaning up the power.  Though perhaps I can improve my setup further, not sure.... Especially perhaps with the ethernet cleanup as you say.

 

 

I like to have only a fiber enter the balanced power area, so have the first FMC outside the balanced power and the second FMC inside and both not powered by the same PSU so as not to tied them together electrically 

[hltf]

23 hours ago, jabbr said:

I like to have only a fiber enter the balanced power area, so have the first FMC outside the balanced power and the second FMC inside and both not powered by the same PSU so as not to tied them together electrically 

Your idea makes sense, thanks.  It sounds similar to what @SQFIRST is suggesting too.  The question/concern I see for my setup is that I'd then have the first 10GTek FMC in another room, which is not very far away actually, but I'd have to connect the two 10GTek FMCs via a rather long optical cable.  I think I might be able to lay my hands on a long enough Cisco cable perhaps.  But aren't these cables rather delicate?  Right now that length between the two cables is covered by a flat ethernet RJ45-terminated copper cable which passes under a rug over which people step.  Would I have to send the Cisco AOC cable from one room to the next by taping it to the ceiling or something?  Would it be strong enough to take the twists and turns of taping it up the wall, through the top of a door opening, across a length of ceiling and back down to my audio cabinet?  

 

And a separate question also please.  I am wondering if this BitEngine 10G SFP+/Ethernet FMC work for a Cisco 10G AOC cable?  And should one expect that it would have the lower jitter specs of 10G switches?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CF5JHM9Q/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_2?smid=&psc=1

 

Thanks!

[b0bb]

6 hours ago, hltf said:

Your idea makes sense, thanks.  It sounds similar to what @SQFIRST is suggesting too.  The question/concern I see for my setup is that I'd then have the first 10GTek FMC in another room, which is not very far away actually, but I'd have to connect the two 10GTek FMCs via a rather long optical cable.  I think I might be able to lay my hands on a long enough Cisco cable perhaps.  But aren't these cables rather delicate?  Right now that length between the two cables is covered by a flat ethernet RJ45-terminated copper cable which passes under a rug over which people step.  Would I have to send the Cisco AOC cable from one room to the next by taping it to the ceiling or something?  Would it be strong enough to take the twists and turns of taping it up the wall, through the top of a door opening, across a length of ceiling and back down to my audio cabinet?  

 

And a separate question also please.  I am wondering if this BitEngine 10G SFP+/Ethernet FMC work for a Cisco 10G AOC cable?  And should one expect that it would have the lower jitter specs of 10G switches?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CF5JHM9Q/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_2?smid=&psc=1

 

Thanks!

If you need to run the fiber cable under the rug, consider an armored single LC cable.

Amazon has a good selection, this is outdoor rated for direct ground burial.

The cable is slightly bigger than regular fiber cable contains spiral metal armor under the plastic jacket.

A bidi transceiver allows Tx/Rx on a single fiber.

This is mine on a Fitlet3

 

Also have the 10G bitEngine, will not be buying another one, 10G works and that is about it. 2.5 was a no-go

Quality is poor, mine came with a detached heatsink.

It only saving grace is being able to tolerate the MacStudio going in and out of sleep and not locking up. I tried a few of the cheap realtek switches, all copper 10G ports locked up after a few days  needing a power on reset.

[audiobomber]

10 hours ago, hltf said:

But aren't these cables rather delicate?  Right now that length between the two cables is covered by a flat ethernet RJ45-terminated copper cable which passes under a rug over which people step.  Would I have to send the Cisco AOC cable from one room to the next by taping it to the ceiling or something? 

I have used Corning fiber optic cable under a carpet that people walk on, for two years. This  cable is so thin, I don't think it sees any stress whatsoever from foot traffic on the rug. 

[jabbr]

16 hours ago, hltf said:

Your idea makes sense, thanks.  It sounds similar to what @SQFIRST is suggesting too.  The question/concern I see for my setup is that I'd then have the first 10GTek FMC in another room, which is not very far away actually, but I'd have to connect the two 10GTek FMCs via a rather long optical cable.  I think I might be able to lay my hands on a long enough Cisco cable perhaps.  But aren't these cables rather delicate?  Right now that length between the two cables is covered by a flat ethernet RJ45-terminated copper cable which passes under a rug over which people step.  Would I have to send the Cisco AOC cable from one room to the next by taping it to the ceiling or something?  Would it be strong enough to take the twists and turns of taping it up the wall, through the top of a door opening, across a length of ceiling and back down to my audio cabinet?  

 

And a separate question also please.  I am wondering if this BitEngine 10G SFP+/Ethernet FMC work for a Cisco 10G AOC cable?  And should one expect that it would have the lower jitter specs of 10G switches?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CF5JHM9Q/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_2?smid=&psc=1

 

Thanks!

FMCs tend to be more cheaply made than switches but at 10G I wouldn't worry about jitter specs. Mikrotik makes a fanless 5 port switch and TP Link also something similar. 

 

AOC cables can be hit or miss but SMF, particularly Corning ClearCurve is pretty tough, and outdoor rated cables are tougher. Then use whichever SFP(+) modules work with each end.

[jabbr]

9 hours ago, b0bb said:

If you need to run the fiber cable under the rug, consider an armored single LC cable.

Amazon has a good selection, this is outdoor rated for direct ground burial.

The cable is slightly bigger than regular fiber cable contains spiral metal armor under the plastic jacket.

A bidi transceiver allows Tx/Rx on a single fiber.

Yeah but folks should be aware that BiDi SFP(+) modules are specific and you can't expect typical SFP(+) modules to work with mono cables.

 

An example of armored LC-LC duplex: https://www.fs.com/products/40385.html?utm_country=9052181&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq92sm4m2hgMV3Hd_AB2jdgEiEAAYASAAEgIZrvD_BwE ... fs.com is a great source for pre-terminated cables

[Jud]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Mikrotik makes a fanless 5 port switch and TP Link also something similar.

 

Just wanted to add that QNAP has a nice inexpensive switch with two 10G optical ports and four 2.5G copper.

[hltf]

23 hours ago, jabbr said:

FMCs tend to be more cheaply made than switches but at 10G I wouldn't worry about jitter specs. Mikrotik makes a fanless 5 port switch and TP Link also something similar. 

 

AOC cables can be hit or miss but SMF, particularly Corning ClearCurve is pretty tough, and outdoor rated cables are tougher. Then use whichever SFP(+) modules work with each end.

This is a lot of very helpful advice.  Thanks a lot everybody @jabbr, @jud, @audiobomber, @b0bb.

 

Need to look through it all and conclude next steps.

 

Have a good weekend all.  Thanks again

[SQFIRST]

On 5/30/2024 at 3:06 PM, jabbr said:

fs.com is a great source for pre-terminated cables

+1

Had some recent positive experience with service and quality from fs.com. Will return for any future use.

[SQFIRST]

On 5/29/2024 at 10:19 PM, hltf said:

The question/concern I see for my setup is that I'd then have the first 10GTek FMC in another room, which is not very far away actually, but I'd have to connect the two 10GTek FMCs via a rather long optical cable.

This actually makes for an appropriate optically isolated setup. The separation and distance from main audio is one of the advantages of fiber.

 

On 5/31/2024 at 2:58 PM, hltf said:

Need to look through it all and conclude next steps.

It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Others can provide input only to the extent you have defined your purpose. There is a chance of going off track otherwise.

[SQFIRST]

On 5/30/2024 at 5:30 AM, b0bb said:

A bidi transceiver allows Tx/Rx on a single fiber.

This is mine on a Fitlet3

Thanks for sharing. Just curios - is that a gigabit connection on the fitlet and what do you use the fitlet for?

[b0bb]

1 hour ago, SQFIRST said:

Thanks for sharing. Just curios - is that a gigabit connection on the fitlet and what do you use the fitlet for?

Gigabit connection, Intel I210 builtin NIC on Fitlet3.

BiDi Transciever is from Ubiquity, previously discussed on this forum.

Fiber is single mode OS2

 

Use it as HQPlayer NAA and Roon Endpoint.

 

BiDi Fiber over OS2 directly connected to NAA is the best results I am able to get, conventional duplex fiber, gave me incremental results over copper.

[b0bb]

Another view of the Fitlet3, passive, no fans.

Fiber connection was a duplex gigabit multimode connection when the picture was taken.

 

 

 

 

[SQFIRST]

@b0bb are you comparing bidi vs duplex on the same connection leg to the fitlet and finding preference for bidi?

[Jud]

On 5/30/2024 at 2:20 PM, Jud said:

 

Just wanted to add that QNAP has a nice inexpensive switch with two 10G optical ports and four 2.5G copper.

 

Maybe QNAP is going to do model changes, because that switch is on sale at Amazon now for $80, which is a screaming deal.

https://www.amazon.com/QNAP-QSW-2104-2S-A-US-Ethernet-Switch/dp/B0BFC6QFRL/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2HHSSJFQULUEG&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.mdDt4zUoFHxQKN9BIcyJnoE9mPhtEOIa1OEUWENWoxdZ5yFISHupw9gb1my9IeCRJoQRYZPnMnYo6Xns8oZZ4HxtDqA10mhCXQD1fOZ_GKfbOy9tDN-YxFU8QQYjiqVmIiqQOPR6yRO_lTEOcKx-GZ11Nr6wSXKK5r_oNRXltnX71lXBPzRFhPuwHim20I0lxsga6kpfAnwItxE5qiYEe5ZP4mOTtSR65Kknbsqr6zg.W2s-M5NN75ibL12Mdii1ueKSM6-gxQ4BxYVo2uAEccE&dib_tag=se&keywords=qnap%2B10gbe%2Bswitch&qid=1717350319&sprefix=qnap%2B10g%2Bswitch%2Caps%2C142&sr=8-3&th=1

[Jud]

2 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

Thanks for sharing. Just curios - is that a gigabit connection on the fitlet and what do you use the fitlet for?

 

The Fitlet3 optional optical port is SFP+ and will happily accept a connection with 10G capability (I use SFP+ Finisar transceivers at both the switch and the Fitlet), though internal processing is 1G.

[SQFIRST]

@Jud thanks for confirming 10g availability on the fitlet3. What is your use case for the fitlet?

[b0bb]

25 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

@b0bb are you comparing bidi vs duplex on the same connection leg to the fitlet and finding preference for bidi?

Yes.

Seems to be BiDi vs separate Tx/Rx on the Fitlet3, soundstage and vocals became a whole lot more focused after the switch, made a significant difference on choral music.

 

Below is the initial attempt $40 from Amazon for the transceiver pair and OS2 SC-UPC fiber cable.

I initially wanted SC connectors as they are physically more robust.

Got similar results.

 

The other end goes into a Mikrotik CRS-317, switched to Ubiquiti as the diagnostics did not function on the Amazon cheapie and I wanted to keep an eye on the temps on the SFP

 

[Jud]

33 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

@Jud thanks for confirming 10g availability on the fitlet3. What is your use case for the fitlet?

 

I have a minimal Arch Linux install (no GUI) on it, and have added (besides the essential ssh) the HQPlayer network audio daemon, and mpd plus upmpdcli for UPnP capability. So I can (and do) use it as either an NAA with HQPlayer or as a UPnP endpoint with Audirvana.

 

Connection between the Fitlet3 and DAC is optical USB - no through-wired copper connection. https://fibbrcable.com/products/alpha-usb-a-b-optical-fiber-digital-audio-cable

[SQFIRST]

@b0bb that's an interesting report and a new perspective for me - thanks.

[audiobomber]

I've started a new thread dedicated to (non-optical) passive DAC cables.